Kathy Durbin joins us from the poignant docuseries "Let Us Pray: Ministry of Scandals" to share her experience within the independent fundamental Baptist movement, a journey marked by courage and the quest for justice. As we unravel Kathy's narrative, we reveal the complexities of growing up under the weight of heavy expectations and the chilling repercussions of challenging those norms. Together, we explore the intricate tapestry of personal stories that, while uniquely harrowing, forge a bond of unity among survivors, compelling us to address the urgent need for change within such insular communities.
The heart of our discussion lies in the raw, emotional tales that traverse the spectrum from childhood traumas to the search for love and belonging amidst family turmoil. Each guest's contribution, whether revealing the pain of maternal neglect or the travails of redefining one's identity after leaving a constrictive religious environment, offers a powerful testament to the resilience of the human spirit. Through their candidness, we see the strength in vulnerability and how the journey towards healing and self-discovery is a sacred path that many walk with an unwavering resolve.
Our episode culminates with an inspiring look at the transformative power of solidarity and storytelling in the healing process. We examine the emotional challenges faced in courtrooms, the complexities of family dynamics in the aftermath of abuse, and the importance of specialized support in nurturing the seeds of recovery. Celebrating steps towards empowerment, from the work of the Haven Retreat to one nurse's transition into mental health advocacy, we underscore the undeniable impact of giving voice to those once silenced and the collective effort to foster healing and hope for survivors everywhere.
Thanks for listening!
Kathy Durbin joins us from the poignant docuseries "Let Us Pray: Ministry of Scandals" to share her experience within the independent fundamental Baptist movement, a journey marked by courage and the quest for justice. As we unravel Kathy's narrative, we reveal the complexities of growing up under the weight of heavy expectations and the chilling repercussions of challenging those norms. Together, we explore the intricate tapestry of personal stories that, while uniquely harrowing, forge a bond of unity among survivors, compelling us to address the urgent need for change within such insular communities.
The heart of our discussion lies in the raw, emotional tales that traverse the spectrum from childhood traumas to the search for love and belonging amidst family turmoil. Each guest's contribution, whether revealing the pain of maternal neglect or the travails of redefining one's identity after leaving a constrictive religious environment, offers a powerful testament to the resilience of the human spirit. Through their candidness, we see the strength in vulnerability and how the journey towards healing and self-discovery is a sacred path that many walk with an unwavering resolve.
Our episode culminates with an inspiring look at the transformative power of solidarity and storytelling in the healing process. We examine the emotional challenges faced in courtrooms, the complexities of family dynamics in the aftermath of abuse, and the importance of specialized support in nurturing the seeds of recovery. Celebrating steps towards empowerment, from the work of the Haven Retreat to one nurse's transition into mental health advocacy, we underscore the undeniable impact of giving voice to those once silenced and the collective effort to foster healing and hope for survivors everywhere.
Thanks for listening!
Hi all, liz and I are coming today. Liz is here. I'm here, hi, we're coming to you today with a very special guest. We're really excited about speaking with Kathy Durbin. She is one of the stars of the recently premiered series on Mac's entitled Let Us Pray. Let Us Pray Ministry of Scandals examines the pain of survivors of the independent fundamental Baptist movement, which we just covered last week, and it has three stories of survival by the main stars or the main characters of the show Ruthie Hyler, kathy Durbin and Amanda Householder, and Eric's in there too. Anyway, that's your. It's your stories. This year's does tell their stories about abuse at the hands of the church leaders and the violence, manipulation and alleged coverups by other members. It was directed by Sharon Lease and we have Kathy joining us today and we're excited to have her on our podcast to share a bit about her and her stories with us. So welcome. Thanks for having me. We are privileged, we are excited.
Speaker 3:We had no idea if anybody would actually respond, because we reached out to everybody after watching that docuseries and it was really exciting when your message was in the inbox we were like, yay, somebody got back with us. So we're excited because we we essentially would love to do more interviews and so you are our first, so we're excited to have you for sure.
Speaker 2:I think two things already came to mind. One yeah, the stars of the show, which is hilarious, because I've had people say, oh my God, you're famous, and I'm like, no, this is the last thing people would want to be famous for, right? I agree, right. Secondly, any chance I get to talk about this, I'm going to, because we were silenced for so many years. It's so important to find your voice, so we're going to keep talking.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, Absolutely. And that's probably the thing that stuck out to Liz and I most, and I think everybody feels this that you're the only ones. But the wonderful thing about the whole you know story, and all of the horrible wonderfulness about the whole thing, is that there is a bond and that there is a shared trauma that we've all experienced that instantly bonds us and that if we don't talk, who will? And it needs to just roll and roll and snowball into something that changes things the way they are.
Speaker 2:I have said this particular statement over and over and this is the way my brain came up with explaining it. But it's like the worst sisterhood that nobody wants to join. But everyone's glad they're not the only member.
Speaker 3:Yes, that is perfect, perfectly put, perfectly put.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, something that you would never want anybody to have to be in, but and on a side note, kathy.
Speaker 1:I also feel super awkward when it says that stars and I just took that right off IMDb, right Like my side boyfriend IMDb. But when it says one of the stars, I'm like yeah, I'm not sure that's what they were going for.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:It's not as though we're looking for, you know, holly, weird fame here. It's just that. Yeah, yeah, and I don't think you know victims is the right word either. I think survivors would have been the best word there in that situation.
Speaker 2:But and I think it does make a good transition from victims and our stories to the way Sharon wrapped it up at the end to where we're going with our lives very much points to us being survivors. Yeah, I think I think that was done very well, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yep, All right Liz.
Speaker 3:So I've got questions. Of course, if you haven't watched the series, you need to watch it, especially if you have been involved in IFB movement If you have, if you've ever been sexually abused as a child, a minor, by a person in authority, because the IFB was the umbrella in which all of these predators were protected, I want to say, until people started speaking up. But there are, you know, many people who go through abusive situations when they're children. So if you watch this, it might give you some courage to speak out against those sexual predators and bring them to some sort of justice. And so I definitely think that anybody could watch this and feel something.
Speaker 3:My mother-in-law watched this and she's the one who alerted us to it. She had watched it the day it came out and immediately called us and she said, oh my gosh, you guys were in a cult. And I was like, yes, we were. Oh my gosh, I got we've said this a million times but she's like, oh my gosh, I cannot believe this, this is so crazy. And she shared it with us and I immediately called Rachel and I'm like we have to watch this.
Speaker 3:And then I connected to the stories in there so many times because similar experiences and, of course, a lot of the names of the people that were in there I absolutely recognized. I've been to the places like so a lot of recognizable things, and so anybody in the IFB movement you will probably recognize a lot of the things in there, a lot of the people in there and the leaders, things like that, the pastors, so, anyway. So Kathy Liz loves her rabbit trails. Oh my gosh, I am a rabbit trail person. But you talked in your series about I mean, there was a lot of stuff in the series about girls' homes and so you were sent to one before your abuse Correct, right, okay, so you were, and you were abused at the age of around 15?.
Speaker 2:Yes, 15 to 17. Okay.
Speaker 3:Explain to the audience, if you will, the maturity level of a 15 year old in IFB, if you can.
Speaker 2:It's kind of an oxymoron, I think, because you are mature in that you are very obedient, you do what you're told, you sit properly, you talk properly, you yes, ma'am, yes, sir, you're strictly obedient, but you literally know nothing about the world. So you get no sex ed, you don't know about your body, you start your period and think you're bleeding to death. It's just, you're so immature in some ways and so overly mature in other ways, so it's a huge contradiction.
Speaker 3:It really is. And then when stuff happens you, it's totally against what you've been taught. You know, when you're abused, it's like what they're teaching you is not happening and they're the people in authority. Why were you sent away before the abuse? So that's a good question.
Speaker 2:Okay, if I knew the answer, I would love to share it with you. When I was in first grade, I realized my mom. I was in first grade, I realized my mom did not like me or love me, and I don't know why. That's just the age I was, that I that's the youngest I remember thinking she didn't like me, and over and over again throughout my life she would do things that proved it. So I would have moments where I would go yep, yep, I'm right, and that was one of those things.
Speaker 2:So at that time we were going to Lake Elsinore Christian School because Faith Baptist did not have a school then yet, and I had been seeing a therapist there like a counselor. I'd only seen her twice and the school wanted me to see someone. So and it was one of those. It was a Christian school, but kind of by name only. We did ACE, so we did PACEs, but we we didn't really have too much of a dress code. You could wear pants and t-shirts, whatever shorts, but like nothing super short or whatever. So we, I was seeing this counselor and the first day I just told her that I was my mom was married to my third dad.
Speaker 2:So when I was born, my mom was already living with my grandparents, separated from my dad, and then my mom married again. He adopted us. So then we couldn't see our dad, our real dad, because up until then we saw him like every other weekend and I just think I was about like four years old the last time I remember seeing him at that time. And then she married, they got a divorce and that was about first grade, so maybe six, seven years old. And then my mom married my stepdad, who she's married to now, and he was an alcoholic. So every Friday night he would come home drunk. My mom would have a sneak out the window or my brothers, my stepbrothers, sliding glass door, wait outside so she could fight with him, and then we would leave and we'd be gone all weekend. We'd usually come back on Sunday.
Speaker 2:So by the time we moved we lived in like Ontario, california. By the time we moved to Lake Elsinore Wildemare area, we lived in Wildemare, but I would say Lake Elsinore area because most people don't know where Wildemare is. By the time we moved there it was bad. Like every Friday night he would come home drunk, they would fight, we'd go somewhere, but my grandparents lived like less than a mile from us and we weren't allowed to tell them anything that was going on. So they just thought everything was fine and you know. So I just was struggling. I didn't have anyone that I was close to. I was super close to my grandparents, but kind of at a distance because I couldn't tell them anything and I would fight with my mom, like arguing stuff, because we had never gotten along. And so the school wanted me to see this counselor.
Speaker 2:I go see this counselor, I tell her my story, just that you know. She asked me questions about my life like who do you live with? You know, stuff like that. I end up telling her my mom was my mom's third husband and he's an alcoholic and whatever. Well, she asked about my real dad and I end up telling her I can't see him because my mom's second husband adopted us and in order for him to adopt us he had to give up his parental rights. So my mom supposedly they walked out of the courthouse and my mom said you'll never see them again. So there's a little backstory to this.
Speaker 2:I go by, I go down rabbit trails to. So let me know. My sister was like five and I was three and my sister told my real dad, my sister, my mom told my real dad that my sister had to have open heart surgery and if you let my husband at the time adopt the girls, then the military would pay for everything because he was in the Marines. So my real dad, having remarried also and starting another family, said great, because he was struggling and you know, young and married and whatever. So they went to the courthouse, he signed over that Frank could adopt us and then they walked out of the courthouse and my mom said you'll never see them again.
Speaker 3:Oh my God, that was just that was just a bold face, right?
Speaker 1:Yeah, oh yeah, oh my God, so she never had open heart surgery.
Speaker 2:She's had a heart murmur her whole life. That's the extent of that. So, anyway, that's that's how that happened. So this counselor asked, and so I told her that same story and she said oh well, since your mom's not married to your adopted dad anymore, I bet you could see your real dad. And I said great, because here I was in I think I was in seventh grade and I was, I felt very much alone. I didn't feel like I had anyone that loved me in my immediate family. I knew my grandparents loved me, but from a distance, because they had no idea what was going on in our home, and so I felt alone. I felt like I needed someone on my side. So I knew the argument of, and I remember my adopted dad as being my dad, and I knew that argument.
Speaker 2:Somehow in sixth, seventh grade, however old I was, I knew that that would not fly, arguing to see my adopted dad. So I use the argument I want to meet my real dad, I want to see where I came from, and so I thought that was a better argument. Somehow, at that age I think what I was looking for is just someone that would love me for me, but that's the argument I used. My therapist ended up giving me the name and phone number of an attorney and she said, if you call this attorney, I think you can go see your dad, because I think, since you're not with your adopted dad anymore, like that whole thing is, is it's messy, but I think you can see your dad.
Speaker 2:So, being the good teenager I was I must have been in seventh grade because I was in the youth group I went to our youth pastor, cliff Miller, and he said, hey, I got this number for an attorney from my therapist at the school we go to and I I want to call and see if I can see my dad. She said I might be able to and he said, no, don't do that, rip that up. And I'm like, oh, okay, and so I wasn't going to do it because he told me not to. But he went and told my mom and so the next Wednesday or not Wednesday, I don't know what day it was, whatever we were at school I think maybe I don't somehow ended up at church.
Speaker 2:That kind of gets lost on me. But we go to the church, my mom and I, and she goes into talk to Pastor Goddard and she comes out and says we're going to go with Mrs Mitchell, who is the church secretary, and she says, oh, I'm going to go, get in her car. So I get in the backseat, like behind my mom, and we're driving out of the church parking lot which is total dirt, and I hear the locks click. Okay, this is like the eighties.
Speaker 1:Okay, we'll have a lot of like and I was like that's weird.
Speaker 2:And so we get on the freeway, we're heading towards Ramona, california, and I keep asking when are we going? Where are we going? And they're just talking like chit chatting and I'm just sitting back there in my coolots. I have my Bible, I think. Maybe I thought I was going teen soul winning or something, I don't know, but anyway, because I'm trying to put together like why I would have had my Bible. It wasn't like a Sunday or something. So anyway, we ended up at the girls home in Ramona, california, victory Christian Academy, who was ran by Mike and Patty Palmer. It was an old FBI compound, so it had a 15 foot electric fence all the way around it.
Speaker 2:One of those big ones were like if you go to a prison and like the whole gate goes, like one of those Okay. Oh my gosh, so go ahead. Do you need to say something? Oh no.
Speaker 3:Responding to this.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm like like a horror movie, Literally in my brain. I'm in a horror movie right now.
Speaker 2:Yes, Well, the funny thing is, being active in the youth group, we had gone to this girl's home and we had taken our youth group and gone to this girls home one night and our pastor had preached and we had seen all the girls that are horrible and runaways and look what God has done to change their lives, because they're all in cool thoughts now and I mean it was so like it was like crazy deja vu, right, Because here we are and we're driving, we drive up to the gate and the gate opens and she drives through and it closes behind us and it's just like this moment of oh shit, but not shit, because I was a fundee, so I didn't say it but like this can't be happening, right, this, this has got to be fake. Like like I was just here visiting, like two months ago, Like, yeah, so weird, and so I go in, we all go in, but people came out to meet us, like these adult women, and we go in and then me and my mom go sit in my Palmer's office, which, when you walked in, it was like the first door on the left. We sit down and he's talking and he's talking about so you, you have an attitude, huh, and I'm like, oh sir, like what? Like I don't know what's going on. And then I'm trying to explain, like I just want to see my dad, like I don't know what we're doing here, you know, like I'm in cool thoughts with my Bible, Okay. So then she says well, you're staying here.
Speaker 2:And again, this is like the third or fourth time in my life. Okay, she's proved to me once again I'm expendable. If you can get me out of your hair, that is what you will do. So she leaves this woman younger woman and a little older woman come in and say you need to come with us and I'm crying. And so I go, and we go into this bathroom that has a couple of toilet stalls and a couple of shower stalls and they say, okay, you need to take all your clothes off and get in that shower. And I'm like, where do I do that? Right here, they did a strip search. I had to shower in front of them Because some of these girls were runaways and were coming in off the streets or whatever.
Speaker 2:They give me clothes of theirs to wear, because there was like this huge closet with tons of coolots and t-shirts and whatever, and that you just wore whatever. And then they were having chapel because it was evening time and so after all that happened, they said you're going to go in and sit in chapel. And I walk in and I sit down in the chair in these rows with these girls and I'm like, I'm trying to make sense of it in my brain, because I was literally just here with my youth group visiting Like within a couple of months, and now here I am with these girls. It was so surreal, so surreal.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's crazy. So it basically wasn't for anything you did other than speaking the truth to a therapist. That potentially leaked back, and then your mom reacted to that information getting shared and then you were punitively sent off because you were just speaking what was going on Basically, and most likely, the counselor was probably trying to look out for you but didn't understand that there would be this like escalated response to that from your mom. Who's supposed to actually take it in a way of oh then, maybe we need to get her more help, not send her off to prison, prison camp, with these other girls that you know. You, basically, you got punished for speaking the truth. Well, and that wasn't uncommon.
Speaker 2:No, but the thing was like I didn't speak anything, like I didn't talk.
Speaker 2:I mean, it was like I asked my, my youth pastor a question. Like I went to my youth pastor for advice, like you're supposed to do there. All these great men of God are supposed to give you all the advice, right, and then I was penalized for it, but none of that even mattered. I didn't even care. This was once again my mom saying I don't have the time or where with all to deal with you, so I'm going to put you somewhere. Which said to me you don't love me, I'm expendable, I'm just a chore to you, right, yeah.
Speaker 1:Which yeah?
Speaker 3:that's oh my gosh, this makes so much more sense when you said, when we talked earlier and you had said, your mother is still on the church.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because that's a big deal, it's a huge deal.
Speaker 3:I call my mom after our conversation and like cried on the phone to her and thanked her for leaving Because I don't know what I would have done Like. I think that to me that is like so huge.
Speaker 1:That's the risk that every single person feels like they have to take when they choose to step out and say something is because it's the absolute risk of losing their family, not only the nuclear family, but then like all the family that they have in the movement, in the IFB. And it's horrifying because you don't know anything outside of that and everything outside of that.
Speaker 2:You've been taught to fear so and I I have forgiven my mom for not doing any more than she did after I was abused and it came out because I can, as an adult now and having been out of the IFP for like six years not very long, wow, I know, and so I can still, you're still fresh out the cult.
Speaker 1:That's what I call it. So.
Speaker 2:I can see that she was manipulated into this cult just like everybody else was.
Speaker 3:Absolutely.
Speaker 2:She was manipulated to follow the pastor and all of his advice, just like I was right, so I can forgive that. I can't forgive the girls home and I can't forget the numerous amount of times she showed me that she did not love me the way a mother should love her child. That I don't forgive her for. I forgive her in the way that she clearly does not have the capacity to love me like she was supposed to. She has mental health issues that I truly believe she's a narcissist and so like as a nurse, as an adult and a mother, I can forgive that, but I also. Now I have boundaries, so she's not in my life. I had a conversation with her once. I don't know. Do you want me to go into this? Go for it, okay. So during the when when my abuser, I feel like I'm getting too far ahead, maybe we should go back.
Speaker 1:Oh no, you're absolutely fine. So I there was. Well, let's get to your mom in just a second. Liz, it was gonna point out a couple connections that she brought out which I think are really important, importing it not just to the podcast, but also like information that gives us a little bit more, and I would say backup information, let's say historical reference, or let's say a library or a catalog of markers, red flags, things to look for. That would be your connection to your dad and your desire to it to happen, because every girl, especially in a single parent home with only a mother, liz and I both experience this the same.
Speaker 1:You get to an age and it's usually, you know, just at before or during, at before or after puberty, where your mom becomes a little bit more of an enemy and you need a, you need a male figure that's going to help you feel loved and cared for a little bit more than your mother. No matter how good your mom is, that is still a thing, and we both shared that with you. I think Liz did a lot more than I did, and then I just feel like, like Liz and Kathy, you guys have a lot more like connectivity in terms of like, like Liz was the rule follower. She was the. I am going to follow everything you tell me to do exactly. And I was just like why?
Speaker 1:No, I don't like that. Why are you doing that? I don't think that's okay. No, that's not fair. Why'd you punish him? I was the troublemaker because I opened my mouth and asked why Liz had a lot more of the same like personality characteristics in which she was just like no, no, no, you can't do that. We have to follow the rule like this is the way it's supposed to be done.
Speaker 2:That's so funny because I very much am the why kid. I would get in trouble for asking why. And what was weird was like I'm not saying I won't do it, I just want to know why. I was the thinker I wanted. I wanted a rationale, I wanted to learn things and know the why's. When I had my daughter, when she was probably two or three, she started the why and I was like I know you and I knew I was not going to punish her for saying why, but it would get on my nerves when I would say Savannah, time to pick up your toys. And she'll go why. So I learned when she was very little to say Savannah, we're gonna pick up our toys. And I asked because it's time for dinner or because it's bath time or?
Speaker 2:and I would give her the why in the instructions and then it was no problem yeah, yeah and I think, and I tried so hard I feel like I'm kind of in between you two because I was very much the rule follower, but I was also the why I'm smart. I want to know why, I want to know how it works, why are we doing this? But I very much wanted to do right at the same time. So I feel like I kept that why in check after a while because I realized how much trouble I was getting into.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I asked why one time?
Speaker 1:but she already pushed a little more stubborn.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I asked why one time and I got shut down so badly and I was like, okay, okay, I'm just gonna follow the rules. Rachel's the one who got me into lots of trouble. We would, she would talk me into it. She was a little devil on my shoulder saying we should, we should do stuff, but yeah, so, yeah, I very much was the good kid, you know, I followed all the rules, I did what I was supposed to do.
Speaker 1:Yeah, always but Kathy got us into two things. So we have to hear the mom's story, the conversation, so we have to go back to that, and then she also already pushes to two other things which was like what did she keep? Which was like, when my kid asks why, then I give them the direction and the because right, which is one of the things that she kept right from from from having that experience of saying I can't ask why but then I question everything.
Speaker 1:Yes, same question everything you ask and you speak up and you stick up when it's yeah, yeah, so, but she and she started talking about her kids, which we're kind of gonna ask about like life now and then, like what do we do?
Speaker 2:but, yes, conversation back to, so refocus for okay so when in 2018, when my abuser started being investigated, he it took about a year, but he got arrested and then extradited to California, which started like an almost monthly or every other month trip to California for me. He's from Pennsylvania, so he had to fly every month and then. So every time we had a court date, I didn't go. So I knew he was arrested. I knew he was being extradited to California because I was getting like these texts through the prison system, but and I really wanted to be at his arraignment, but I didn't know when it was gonna be, so I couldn't just like magically fly there, right. So, because I live in Montana now, um, so I threw a series of weird events.
Speaker 2:They, when they booked him into the federal prison in downtown Riverside, they spelled his name wrong or something. So if you get arrested for a crime and you, you there's a law or some kind of rule, at least in California, that you have to go before a judge within like 48 hours. Yeah, so if there's not a time booked in the court, then you get released and then you have to come back for your arraignment because they're not gonna indefinitely hold you without a court date. So that makes sense right, unless it's like maybe for murder or something. Yeah but, anyway.
Speaker 2:So he had a court date. So he he came to California extradited on a plane on a Monday. He had a court date for Wednesday, but because they spelled his name wrong, they say it didn't look like he had one, so they let him go. On Tuesday they let him bail out and so that was in July. So they they then gave him another. They first issued a bench warrant but then they set an arraignment date for October. So I had to wait from July to October for him to actually be arraigned and I'm like I'm going, this doesn't feel real to me. I can't see him in custody, like I need to go and see this. And I didn't really know why. I couldn't put words to it, I just knew I had to be there. So I show up, he's in the court and it was in southwest Riverside County in the myrietta.
Speaker 2:Robert Presley detention, to make you know yeah, it's kind of it's in to make you love. It's really not it's in myrietta, but it's like I think is it in French Valley yes, because there's a big house in French Valley. Yes, but it's actually still considered myrietta it's like the outskirts of myrietta. But yeah, I know exactly what you're talking about.
Speaker 1:Yes, that was the other thing I meant to say. Liz and I have connection because I lived in like Elsinore for like I know, like from 2007 to like 2010. I know, and.
Speaker 3:I live there from 2006 to 2008, yeah, so crazy, I know.
Speaker 1:And did you ever go to Faith Baptist? Well, liz and I have been out for 25 years.
Speaker 1:Oh gosh 20 now, but yeah 20 years so, but that's the other thing is like, well, it's so refreshing to see this whole new crop and I know you're finishing your story, but I'm like it's for Liz and I'm like we're mind-blown. We're just like, oh my god, where was this? Because we just basically pounded it out on our own, you know, and and we had no idea, we had no, you know, any global. We were just like, okay, let's figure this out on our own, do it our own way and just, you know, beat your head against the wall so many times to figure it out, but it's so refreshing to see you guys and then also like the camaraderie and like the fact that you guys have each other is like hurt, like warming, just to know that you guys have that support system. Because it was like for Liz and I was just me and her, yeah, and that was enough, quite honestly, yeah more than enough because you know we, we did it.
Speaker 1:But to see that was just. It's so Liz at a hard time with it because it's kind of rehashing some of the same stuff. But again I was like no, no, no, this is so amazing. I'm so excited, I'm so proud, I'm so happy and glad that they got this moment, because in many sense, most people don't get that and I, I happen to, but Liz didn't get her moment. You know, there's there's times when people don't and it's just. Yeah, I know exactly what you're talking about.
Speaker 2:I feel like one of the things very, very valuable things I have learned through this process is that you cannot heal from something you are not allowed to talk about you're carrying this deep, dark secret. You are not gonna heal from it, and that does not mean that you have to speak publicly like we are right. Yep, you just have to find somebody a sister, a best friend, a parent, a husband, whatever that you can pour your heart out, talk about the deepest, darkest parts of it and have someone go.
Speaker 2:Wow, oh my gosh, I'm so sorry, you did not deserve that. And then I promise you every single time you talk about it it's less painful, absolutely. And so it's like you're taking little pieces of your life back. It's like you're taking ownership of what happened, happened to you. I feel like when, especially sexual abuse, when you're sexually abused, they take your self-worth and then they own you because they have this shameful story about you. But when you take it back and you can talk about it, you've taken that power away from them yeah, absolutely and so I'm so.
Speaker 2:That's why I'm I'm willing to talk about it any day and every day, because excellent yeah, I got I had good, the other part go ahead, keep going.
Speaker 1:I'm sorry keep, going, keep going.
Speaker 2:The other thing, too, that I've said and it's an April, made it into a quote, I said is that every time a woman tells her story, it's like she's reaching out her hands and grabbing on to another woman that needs to come forward and tell their story, and I truly believe that that's true, because everyone that I've talked to and said, oh yeah, this happened. They're like me too, and I'm like, oh my gosh, they're out there, yeah, everywhere, and it's crazy yeah.
Speaker 1:I'm wondering yeah right for speaking yet well, no, it's, it's higher than that. It's like it's. It's probably closer to three and four, if we're honest about it, right at some point, liz um, I I had a question if counseling was hard for you, being that after the cult because she didn't finish. She didn't finish her mom conversation oh my gosh.
Speaker 2:I really want to hear it we had moved to Montana in 2018 and the very next month, and I think this was a God thing. We moved in April, in May.
Speaker 1:Victor's first victim came out yes.
Speaker 2:So I mean I could not have orchestrated that, right? Um. But so I had to fly to California every time I went to court and it was very important to me to be there. Even if it was a two-minute court thing, I still needed to be there. So I would stay, sometimes with my grandma, sometimes with a friend. But my grandma lived on my parents property my mom, my stepdads so every time I'd go see my grandma, I would also see my mom, which I was not not talking to my mom, um.
Speaker 2:So my mom would ask me every time can I go to court with you? And I would say, no, it's only a two to ten minute thing, you don't need to go. But you can go to the sentencing, anyone can go to the sentencing. And I kept telling her that. And every time I'd come down for court she'd say can I go? And I would say no, and I would tell her you can go to sentencing. Well, covid rolled around and then, like things got delayed and I mean it took like three years. It was horrid.
Speaker 2:But one of the times prior to COVID, I went out and my mom again said I want to talk to you, and I said, okay, and she goes. I'm gonna take this lady home. It was a friend of hers that was at her house. She goes, come with me so I can talk to you. Like, okay, fine, so I go with her. And you know, they still all went to faith Baptist and everything. We dropped her off and then we're on our way back and she's like I want to know why I can't go with you. And I said, mom, I have told you why you can't go with me. And I, at this point, I had told her I only want people there. I said I'm going for the 15-year-old me that needed someone to stand up for her. I only want one person to go with me that supports me. And that wasn't there when all this went down.
Speaker 2:And my thinking in my mind was, without saying this harshly to her, was you weren't there for me when you were supposed to be. So you can't go. I need someone that supports me and is there for me. But my mom makes everything about her, and that's where I think the narcissism comes into play. She makes everything about her. So she kept pushing the issue I want to go, I want to go, I want to go. And I kept saying no.
Speaker 2:And we're talking 10 court sessions in, she's still asking to go and I'm still saying no. And I said you need to hear me, mom. I said, ok, you need to look at me, we need to talk, but I want you to listen and don't talk until I'm done. And she's like OK, and I went through the. I was six years old when I realized you didn't love me or like me. And of course she's no, no, that's not true. And I'm like OK, listen, you can't talk. You need to listen to me and let me get this out. And I had been in therapy for a few years now. So I'm like I'm getting stronger, I'm working things out, but I'm afraid I have this conversation.
Speaker 2:I have this conversation with her and I'm like, from first grade on I knew you didn't like me or love me. I don't know why, but you didn't, and I don't know. I went through several things that had happened. I said why did I go to the girl's home? Why did I go to the girl's home, mom? And she said, kathy, you were always in trouble. I was what do you mean? I was always in trouble.
Speaker 2:She said Mr Beale was calling me all the time about you in school. I said, mom, I want you to think back to where I went to school when I went to the girl's home. She's like OK, now say that again. Why did I go to the girl's home? Who was calling you, mr Beale? I said, mom, faith Baptist Church didn't even have a school then, and she was blaming it on Mr Beale, who was the principal of the Baptist Academy. And I said I seriously want you to see your doctor. You do not get anything right. You make up things, facts that are not true. They did not have a school then. I was never in trouble at school, ever. So Mr Beale was not calling you. And so we're having this conversation.
Speaker 2:And then I told her. I said and when you took me to the girl's home, once again you proved to me that you did not like me or love me. And that's fine. I knew I was right. You just kept showing me how right I was. And I said now we're at this point where I'm going to court and I'm maybe going to get justice and I only want people there that didn't have the chance to stick up for me back then and then are standing with me now. And I said why do you want to go anyway? She said because he hurt me too. And I said and that's why you can't go, it's not about her, it's about me and what happened to me.
Speaker 2:So then I said look, mom, I'm an adult, you're an adult. I've never felt like you were my mom in the mom sense. But we can go forward as adults with whatever relationship you want to have. But my kids are your grandkids and I will let you have a relationship with them and be their grandma. But that relationship is on you because you are the adult in that relationship.
Speaker 2:And she has over and over and over again shown my kids that she cannot be trusted. She lies, she says she'll do stuff and then she won't do it. And my kids were little when we moved up here and they would say grandma said we'd go to the beach tomorrow and then I'm like, ok, well, yep, let's get your stuff ready, knowing she probably wouldn't, and then she wouldn't take them and they would be very disappointed. So they remember from very little that that kind of stuff would happen. But I laid it out there and then she really didn't want to talk to me ever again after that and that was fine. She does talk to my kids here and there. She'll send them a Christmas present. Who cares?
Speaker 2:Whatever, I put that relationship on her with them. I keep, I protect my kids. They don't go visit her. I make that a little bit distant so I can try to protect them a little bit from her narcissism hurting them. But she is their grandma and I do think that relationship is OK. But she's responsible for that. We went to my grandma's funeral last year in December and she literally went up to each of my kids after not seeing them for a few years and said are you going to at least give me a hug? And gave them a hug and that's it and I'm like why are you putting them on their kids? Oh, my goodness, that's so on you. And then my stepdad didn't talk to any of us, none of us.
Speaker 1:Wow, that's so almost like victim blaming where it should be on you that you need right, like as if the kids have an obligation to continue a relationship with her.
Speaker 2:But that's who she is. That makes it not about her, so that's not going to happen.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Liz, and then I did text her and say this is the sentencing date and time, and she didn't go.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I knew that was coming before you, oh.
Speaker 2:Your daughter is getting justice after 30 years for literal crimes against her. But it's not about you, so you're not going to go, ok.
Speaker 1:I don't know your mom but I know the personality type and I understand and that is tough and I'm sorry that's a tough one to hoe and I get it, I understand it and I know we did have to set boundaries with mom for our mother when we left I had I think I was fortunate because I was required by Victim Services advocates to go directly into therapy because of the charges and I was so young but and I think that saved my life, I do.
Speaker 1:Yeah 100% and it was the experimental therapy at the time. But I struggled with insomnia, ptsd, complex PTSD, ocd, generalized anxiety for years, from 12 up until 19, which is when I finally got help. And then it created a different boundary, instead of rules for me that I wasn't familiar with, I was taught to be afraid of, but then I embraced them 100% and then I had to. We got our mom. Our mother did come out with us and then we had to. I call it retraining her. I think that continuous.
Speaker 1:We do have mental health issues in the family. I wouldn't say that narcissism is one of it, but there is a sprinkle. And then we had to just set boundaries, though I said you know what, there are times that I need you to just listen and I can't hear your feedback, nor do I want it, and I just need you to listen Right, and those little tiny boundaries where you're just like, if you want to have a relationship with me, then I need you to be non-judgmental and just an ear to hear. I can't have you inserting your opinion or judging me or telling me what you think the IFB would tell me about this situation. I just need you to listen. So we had a lot of that. Two things, and we have time. I know that we're probably going to record more than we probably need, but I'm OK, moving on. We can split it, yeah.
Speaker 2:And.
Speaker 1:Liz, I'm a talker, kathy.
Speaker 3:Me too.
Speaker 1:It's up to you too. I don't want to spend all night with you, but I'm OK going farther if you guys are. Yeah, Liz, you were going to talk about counseling a little bit, and then I saved that on here. And then I also wanted to say a little bit, Kathy, about closure in the court. So to this day, I have only one place on the planet where I'm afraid of anything and that's in our courtroom. So I have trouble doing jury duty right. I still struggle with it, getting better at it, but still have 25 years later. Can I ask why? So I never got my day in court? We switched DAs at the very last minute and just got a plea bargain, and there was no opportunity for victim statement at the time. Now, Colorado just FYI, Colorado has since removed the statute of limitations for civil and has expanded the statute of limitations for criminal on sexual abuse of a child, particularly in special cases like in a physician of it.
Speaker 3:They've expanded that since my days.
Speaker 1:But I didn't get my day in court. I didn't get to, but I attended a lot of those times that didn't. But what were the communication things that was in the civil suit, though that wasn't the criminal. The criminal was rough and in terms of timeframe. I look at mine and I'm like I think I was one of the probably first to actually whistle, blow and come out on this legally and civilly. So nobody knew how to handle it. Even the DA had a hard time struggling with understanding what exactly was going on.
Speaker 1:But I happened to have probably, I would say, 12, 10 to 12 women, generations much older than me, and then generations too below me that came out, not all of which were willing to testify at a criminal trial.
Speaker 2:But at least have With the same defendant, same defendant.
Speaker 1:But all of whom were willing to at least very least make a statement. And these were my babysitters right when I was a kid. These were kids I babysought when I was there, so there was generational corroboration between all of them, but nobody knew how to handle this. They treated it as any normal whatever the heck fucking normal means pedophilia case, without extenuating circumstances. So they didn't take into account that it was in an environment that was actually giving the predator a lot of leeway Power, a lot of yeah, a lot of power, a lot of.
Speaker 2:Fission of power they talk about that a lot now.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that was inkling of my case. Inkling it was more or less molestation of a child. So they had to pare it down and they couldn't. And then we switched DAs at the very end and he took a plea and I never got my Dancourt and then at the civil trial, so that was right before I had my daughter At the civil trial I had my daughter and it became so much more clear to me how heinous that this was. And because I had my child, that and I could sit there and look into her eyes and know someone took this and did this To a child. Yeah, and then I had a hard time with that. So there's a lot of, let's say, referred PTSD from those. Because it was such a really like realization and I was, I wasn't a young mom list was the only month but it became a year to me at that time and, and still to this day, I do get like panic attacks.
Speaker 1:I've had judges just be like okay, come into my chambers, and then they're like no, no, don't ever come back, because I'm like when I tell them my story, they're just like oh no, oh God, no, leave right now, right, they've all been very kind to me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I managed to stay off like and don't get me wrong, I love it as a civil service. I think we should all do jury duty. I think it's important. Don't get me wrong, I've showed up but I'm like misty pits, I'm just like drenched in sweat and I'm like yeah, we're gonna do this and the judges, like you know, look right.
Speaker 1:Yeah yeah, so that is my one one time. But I do think that there's closure there and I think it's absolutely right to see it, to hear it, to hear them say that, to hear them say I'm guilty, to hear them say this to, to hear their you know anything that they get punishment on, or even if they speak and say you know whatever, it's still really important to get that closure, because it is like a mosaic that had a whole smashed in it and then, as they speak, as you take back, your power just kind of comes back to the front of that mosaic, to where the missing pieces have just kind of gone.
Speaker 2:Can suki?
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Have you heard of can suki? Yes, I love that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so. And then, liz, you were going to ask her about counseling. Yeah, your.
Speaker 3:So you had mentioned in the documentary about how, like all the counseling was supposed to go through the leaders. You know, and I had horrible experiences with counseling. Just the inappropriateness is the question Be specific about, about with me as a young child who knew nothing, and so I really had a time what 10,000 feet out?
Speaker 1:what counseling or are you talking about?
Speaker 3:And counseling, just like, if you need to. Where? Where? At the cult? Ah, there you go, okay so, okay. So if you, if you needed to, you know, because they're what they didn't believe in traditional therapy, I'm sure it was the same with you. You were not allowed to see a secular therapist because you weren't allowed to have mental health.
Speaker 2:If you had. If you had a head problem, it was a heart problem. Historical woman reading your Bible enough.
Speaker 3:Yes, absolutely.
Speaker 2:Busy enough for the folks.
Speaker 3:Yes, In fact, I had a problem trusting a therapist because of that, because I felt like you would tell them something in confidence and they would scream it from the pulpit.
Speaker 2:You were the next example in the sermon.
Speaker 3:Yes, so that to me was very challenging. I never told anybody about most of the things, of anything that happened to me. I never talked to anybody. It was like I was terrified of getting in trouble and so I have never been to a counselor ever. I went to counseling with my daughter when she was she was 16. Not going to share the whole story, I got it in the book but she, we did some family counseling. That's pretty much the extent of my counseling, because I can't physically do it and it's 25 years later, right. So anyway, I just had a problem with trust. I have figured out how to deal with stuff like I journal. I talked to my sisters like my person you know my husband is amazing, so like I can have outlets to talk and I found my person and that's what you do, but that's what I do. But I really had a hard time with, like an outside counselor, just the trust factor. So I'm wondering if you ever do.
Speaker 1:We also wrote a book and that was sort of therapeutic Liz. Oh, it's very therapeutic.
Speaker 3:It was a lot of therapy right in the book, for sure.
Speaker 1:It's reevaluating it, but on your own terms, and that was also tough for you and that was a big hurdle, and I think it was cathartic, I think it was therapeutic and I think it's important. So don't discount that.
Speaker 2:But yes, I think it's similar to telling your story. It's another way of taking your voice back 100%.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so did you ever have problems trusting somebody outside? Because it sounds like you had a little bit of counseling at the non church school for a little bit before you were sent away.
Speaker 2:Well, okay, it was two sessions of like 30 minutes and she was a really young girl. She might even have been looking back. She might have been like in therapy school or something.
Speaker 1:I don't know she didn't do anything she was.
Speaker 2:They called her a school counselor, so I'm not sure it was a therapist. I have no idea. This was a Christian school.
Speaker 1:I don't know where they got her.
Speaker 2:But it was two sessions, one to tell my story and one, and I didn't have much of a story then, other than my mom had been married three times and I didn't like him and her advice was here's an attorney. So I mean, I wouldn't say she was a therapist, because she did a piss poor job if she was. I didn't talk to anyone. In my 20s, my mid 20s, I was really struggling to exist. I had left the church, I had come home from Hiles, I had tried to be involved in the church and you know, you're just, you're looked down upon because you didn't finish Bible college. I went for two years but my abuser was there. I was tired of seeing him and I I know I went to the pastor. I went to pastor Godard one day and I said how come we don't have like a college age group? And he's like Because at your age you should go to church because it's right. And I said, well, we have the King's helpers and that's our senior citizen group. And he just walked away because you know I'm exhausted apparently. So I was like Well, I don't get that Like, why do I have to come to church because it's right, but these old people don't you know, like there's nothing for me here, you know. So I kind of fizzled out for a few years and I just struggled, like you're raised to be a wife and a mother and the wife of a Christian pastor or youth pastor or whatever. What am I going to do with my life? So I just was. I felt very lost. I was probably 24 ish, maybe 25. I tried to go to therapy through my employee assistance program. So I went and saw this therapist. She asked me if I'd ever had therapy before and I said no. And she said, okay, well, why do you think you need therapy? I said I just feel lost, like I don't, I really don't know how to exist, like you know. And she's like Okay, well, tell me about how you grew up. And I kind of just briefly touched on things and she the hour went by like that. I don't think I ever stopped talking and she just said she was like Hold on. He said, wow, you really need to be in therapy. But to be honest, like I had never been in therapy before, I was exhausted. I cried for an hour, blabbing this stuff out, I left and I thought I'm never doing that again. Like this is therapy. She didn't even talk to me Like it was. It was not what I thought therapy would be. Had I had some reasonable idea of what it was. So, yeah, then when I actually got out of the cult, we moved to Montana.
Speaker 2:I went after a couple of years of trying to, or actually maybe the first year of trying to navigate, and so it must have been like a year and a half, because he was already arrested and I was going to court. I was actually working as a jail nurse. Ironically and it was. It was very, I feel, like God put me in these positions for specific reasons. Like one day I'm passing meds at the sex offender pod and there's, like you know, 40 guys in there that are in there in that particular pod because they're sex offenders. They're all wearing orange and I'm like, huh, this is Victor's life now. Like just the random thoughts that come to my mind.
Speaker 2:But I ended up having a panic attack, first one ever. I'm 43 years old, have this panic attack and I go. I think I need to go to therapy. So I find I'm what I struggled with the most was do I go to someone religious so that they'll understand what I'm talking about? Right, but I don't want someone religious because all my trauma is from religion. So I'm like I'll try the Christian approach, right. So I go to this Christian therapist. He used to be a pastor, now he's a therapist and I told them the story. He was very nice. He said I'm so sorry that happened to you. That should have never happened. You should have been protected. Okay, okay, I think this is going to work. I go back the second time and he's like opening the Bible.
Speaker 2:Oh no talk about Noah and I'm like what, Like I'm so confused about what that has to do with my life.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 2:He wants to have a Bible study and I'm like no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, I'm not doing this, so I quit. And then I had a friend. Probably a couple months later, I really knew I needed to be in therapy, but I also did not know how to find one, clearly. And so I had a friend recommend a friend who is also a therapist, and I'm like I don't know. She's like no, she's really good, just try her. And she has been my therapist since. She is phenomenal, she is a Christian and she dated someone in the ISP when she was in high school, so she gets a lot of what I'm talking about, but she's amazing. So I think it's so hard to find the right therapist, but it is so worth it when you do.
Speaker 1:Yes, and I can't say that enough. I can't push that enough. I have been again. I consider myself so lucky and I'm so thankful. Every day I am alive Because of therapy, because I know for a fact I would not be here if it wasn't for therapy and I was required to go to it and the although the Colorado laws at the time were subpar for what the crime was and for what we had to challenge with with my whole story, one thing they did do correctly was that a great victims advocate program and they got me and immediately they required it for a year minimal.
Speaker 1:They put me with the best therapists I have ever come across, quite honestly, and then at that point it gave me enough of a stepping stone to then know what to look for, to know that it may take a minute to find a good therapist who actually gets you and understands you. Yeah, and I will say that we had a, we had an ace in the cards with Liz, and I are grandmother, who and I wanted to mention this to like I don't I don't know how your grandmother passing was, but for me and Liz, oh my God when my grandma passed me and Liz lost like half our soul.
Speaker 1:She was our protector in that whole time and we didn't talk to her about things that were going on either. She asked us questions but we weren't allowed to answer them correctly and when she passed, it was like the only person that really just took us as we were as children and really protected us and took care of us past and and I know that that was probably similar in your case to where you felt in a safe space there and that was a one space, safe space that you had growing up, and it was the same for Liz and I and she passed in 2019. And I still haven't recovered this is a hard Christmas.
Speaker 2:My grandma love. She died a couple days before Christmas last year and my kids are like it's not Christmas, mom, it'll never be Christmas again.
Speaker 1:It's so tough.
Speaker 3:But I will plug that.
Speaker 1:And I think you know one of the things that I'm really interested at least with and we need to get to there, because I was like one of the things that I know we had questions about, like your catalyst for coming forward and then like your big takeaways. But you've covered those. But then I wanted to make sure that we get to like anything that you're working on that we want to like sort of like push out and like try and give support to. But then also, you know, in terms of this is, if there's anything is like you know, I know Eric has. I think Eric has on his preacher voice website a list of predators within the IFB. That he's he's used from another website, which I'm like great, but let's integrate that into the the Megan's law and try and get those that are, because mine is not in there.
Speaker 2:Mine's not either, as I was written before.
Speaker 1:Mine got before I got exactly, but I was like can we make it more dynamic instead of just the static yeah list? That would be really cool.
Speaker 1:I think the other thing is that we identify and others a few.
Speaker 1:What is the one in Dr Nation podcast and I think I heard that one?
Speaker 1:She's a therapist and then also leaving Eden, the other one that are similar vein because they're there, there's the therapist they dealt with complex PTSD, which is often diagnosis for this particular thing, because it's not just PTSD, it's very much delving into lots of different areas and for all the religious aspects of it, you do need a specialized service.
Speaker 1:You can't go to anyone. For the most part they're not going to get it, and I think that that's a really important like thing to push is to get kids to the right and if you are going through a hard time, that is the least opportune time for you to try and find a therapist that works for you, because you're not in the space where you're able to try and find that. So if we had a, you know, a listserv of some kind that actually pointed people to the therapist that they should potentially, you know, be able to have access to, that would be super helpful, because it is a very niche, specific person that you need and it's different for everybody. I will not disagree with that, but I do think that there's a level of understanding about the characteristics of this type of organization and the mechanisms by which they work. That is helpful to understand before you go to a therapist, and understand that they know that.
Speaker 1:And that's sort of a back, you know back. I think they have to be a trauma informed. Absolutely, 100%, without, without a doubt. Yeah, yeah, all right, and what?
Speaker 3:what exactly did your Victor right Was your abuser.
Speaker 2:No, victor was my brother-in-law who was great visual and April and Leah's abuser.
Speaker 3:Oh my God, yeah, okay, okay, awesome. So what did? What did they sentence him to in prison, my brother-in-law or my abuser. Your abuser.
Speaker 2:So my abuser. Initially there were three charges. They dropped one for not being able to prove it, which I thought was weird because I really couldn't prove the other two. I mean because the one they dropped was attempted oral copulation, and I was like, but then they, they kept the charge that was penetration with a foreign object. And so I was like, well, if you can't prove oral copulation, how can you? So it was kind of weird, but whatever. So two charges stuck.
Speaker 2:So I was in a different situation, because the same DA that prosecuted my brother-in-law also prosecuted my abuser, because they were kind of linked. My brother-in-law kept all of his victims quiet by using what had happened to me, and so the DA that we had, the district attorney's office, and the DA we had, were unwilling to give either one of them a deal. So and I wanna explain that because people don't understand what that means when you're charged with a crime let's say you're charged with one felony and two misdemeanors your attorney, your defense attorney, can go to the district attorney's office and say okay, my client is charged with a felony and two misdemeanors, take off the felony and they will plead guilty to the misdemeanors, but no jail time, and then the DA can come back and say well, we'll take off the felony, we'll let him plead guilty, but he's gotta do six months. And so there's this deal to be had, right, there's this back and forth deal. So our district attorney's office was unwilling to give Victor or Paul Fox a deal.
Speaker 2:They said no these are heinous crimes. You were in a position to power which they should have done Correct. You are going to plead guilty to all of these crimes if you're gonna plead guilty. However, in the court of law, if you can't get a deal with the attorney, you can go to the judge and see what the judge puts on the table. So the day it was January 8th, I was supposed to be the preliminary hearing. The preliminary hearing is when myself and my investigator and there was other people there, basically witnesses get on the stand and the DA will question them like you're in a trial and the defense can cross-examine and then, once the judge has heard enough, he will either say no, there's not enough for a trial, I'm excusing the charges, or we can set a trial date. So I had flown in from Montana, I had slept for about an hour because I knew I was gonna testify and I wasn't sure what they were gonna ask, and I knew Paul Fox would be sitting there, plus Bruce Goddard was subpoenaed to be there. I hadn't seen him.
Speaker 2:No, he didn't show up. It was his son was getting married, so they gave him a pass and then plus okay. So the DA told me you're gonna be first on the witness stand. I think you'll be on the stand for about three hours, but once we're done.
Speaker 2:I don't think we'll have to call anybody else, we'll just set a trial date. And I said, okay. He said there's one little procedure on another case. Take about 15 to 30 minutes and then we'll get started.
Speaker 2:And I always waited inside the DA's waiting room, because right outside there Is the hallway with everyone in. It Was where Paul Fox and his attorney were and whoever family member he brought with him. So I'm sitting there waiting, I have my friend with me and the DA goes out. And then he comes back in a little while later and he says so, the defendant wants to see what's on the table from the judge. And I'm like what? I didn't know, that was the thing you could do. He's like, well, he wants to see if the judge will give him some kind of a deal. And I'm like but I'm supposed this is the preliminary hearing. I'm supposed to like testify. He's like I know and you might, let's see how this plays out. And I'm like, oh my God, every time you go to court or ends up being something else. You're prepared for one thing and then something else happens and it's exhausting, yeah.
Speaker 1:And it weighs you down.
Speaker 2:Yes. So and it's funny because in the beginning the victim advocate gives you this little pamphlet that's called the I think it's seven or eight, maybe nine, rights of a victim Victim yep. But the defendant that has the right to a speedy trial also has the right to delay, delay, delay. So it doesn't matter that you have all these rights. They're still in control. I hate that I feel like the victims have the right to a speedy trial.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:That's not the way it works.
Speaker 2:So, he went before his defense. So again, I did not know this, but this is what happens. The defense and the DA go in front of the judge. Now this judge this was the first trial judge, so I hadn't been before this judge. This judge was new, he knew nothing about my case. He looks at the case like literally okay, this is the age of him, this is the age of her. These are the charges. And then he hears the defense saying, well, she was 16. And then the DA will say no, she was 15. Well, that's debatable. No, that was proven. Well, it was a relationship. No, it wasn't. He was in a position of authority.
Speaker 2:And they're going back and forth and the judge finally goes all right, all right, I'll give him this. And he offered up to one year in prison or in jail, not prison, up to one year in jail, two years probation and registered sex vendor for life. So the defense goes back to tell Paul Fox that and see if he wants to take the deal. The DA comes to me and said here's what's on the table. And I'm like no, no Right, why can't it be a year in jail? Why does it have to be up to a year in jail. He's like well, he'll decide that it's sentencing, and I'm like no, then I'm gonna say no, he's like, all right, I'll let the judge know. But if the defendant takes the deal, then that's his deal. And I'm like then what's the point of asking me?
Speaker 1:Like I just yeah, don't even bother, yeah.
Speaker 2:So he goes back in there and they, he ultimately takes the deal. So he comes back in the DA and he says, all right, he's taking the deal. And I'm like, okay, he's like, but I want you, we're gonna go in the courtroom and we're gonna put it on record and I'm like I'm leaving and he's like no, I want you to go in there, because this will be powerful for you to hear the way I ask the questions. It will help you and I'm like fine, so we go in there. I'm on this second, maybe benchback. He's on the other side with his attorney.
Speaker 2:The judge comes out in a black robe with a red bandana because it's COVID. He looks like a bank robbing judge. I was like it was so weird, right. So he gets up there and he goes okay, we're here for California against blah, blah, blah. He says all the things right. And then he says, all right, you're pleading guilty to this penal code and this penal code, yes. And he says, oh, it looks like she was 15, maybe 16, and they had a relationship.
Speaker 2:And I'm hearing the judge talk like this and I'm about to get off my pew here that I'm sitting on and like have some words, because I am like what? He was being so nonchalant about it. I was like, okay, so then he has to make sure that he understands what he's signing, that he's signing guilty and blah, blah, blah, and he says yes, okay, and he talks so quiet so you can't hear him, which really pissed me off because I wanted to hear him plead guilty, right. Well, then the DA says all right, your honor, I'd like to ask a question. He says okay, so you're saying, mr Fox, that you're pleading guilty to penal code. Blah, blah, blah, blah, digit or penetration with a foreign object, and he makes them say yes to that. So the way he describes it, he doesn't just say the penal code, he describes the crime and they have to say yes to that. That was powerful.
Speaker 2:And I understood then why he wanted me to hear that, but I was still pissed, okay. So this is January 8th. They sent a sentencing date of April 30th, I think 29th or 30th, I can't remember now, anyway. So I leave and I'm like I need to get out of here. And the DA is like are you good? And I'm like no, I'm mad. He called it a relationship and blah, blah, blah, I just need to leave. So I leave, I go to lunch, I go back to the hotel, I call the DA and I'm like look, I'm pissed off. He called it a relationship. He said I was 15, maybe 16, and he goes okay, okay. Okay, he's like let me explain. And that's when he explained.
Speaker 2:I say stuff, the defense says stuff, we argue, the judge knows nothing. He throws out a thing like listen, he has to act like he's not for or against him. He has to act nonchalant. Or at the sentencing, if he throws a book at him, he can say well, you were biased from the time we did this, you know. But he said he has to act like he's impartial. So he says relationship 15. And I'm like words matter, okay, it does.
Speaker 2:So he's like look, you have until April 29th or 30th I can't remember what the date was to write a victim impact statement. You will be the most important person in the courtroom that day. That is your moment. Tell him what you think. Okay, game on.
Speaker 2:I took the challenge. I wrote a 10 page victim impact statement and most of it was for the judge. I literally got up there and was like you know, I thanked Tony, my investigator, I thanked Jerry, the DA, and how amazing it was that this was almost 30 years old and I was getting justice. I talked about how justice was not really justice, because it's not enough time we're given life sentences, but I said your honor. On January 8th you used these words and I said you hurt me and words matter and you need to know that this was not a relationship. So I'm gonna spend the next few minutes telling you why this wasn't a relationship and I hope you'll listen. And I went through the rest of my nine pages and in the end he said thank you, and there was media in there. So there was cameras, people taking pictures and reporters. And I went and sat down and he said I need to see them in chambers. And I was like what the hell? What's happening now? So my investigator was sitting in front of me and my victim advocate and she's like you did such an amazing job. You did your job. And I'm like but why are they meeting in chambers? And Tony the investigator, he's like you're a badass warrior. And I'm like what's going on right now? So they come back out. Oh, so the DA comes out and he gets me and we go out into the hall and I'm like what now? He's like the judge is throwing out his deal. He said he didn't realize it was as bad as it was. Now, let me back up for just a minute. We get there the day of sentencing.
Speaker 2:We go into the courtroom and the bailiff comes out and tells the defense and the DA that the judge wants to see them in chambers before anything in court starts. They go in there and Jerry comes out my DA and he gets me and we go in the hall and he said the judge is throwing out the deal he gave him in January. And I said, oh, and it was based on the probation report Cause remember, when he made the deal in January, it was the first time he had seen the case and all he saw was the penal codes and what the charges were. And then he heard a little bit from the DA and the defense. But once you plea that starts a probation investigation and the probation department because they're gonna have to follow the criminal. They talk to the victim, the victim's family, a psychologist, on the person, like they do all the stuff right. When they gave the report to the judge, it said we recommend the harshest sentence.
Speaker 2:Well, so the judge called them into chambers by the bailiff before court ever started and said I got the probation report, I can't do this deal. And so they argued a little bit and he said all right, 16 months in prison instead of jail, prison's harder and then registered sex vendor for life. So Jerry comes and gets me, we go out into the hall and he says this is what I said. Can we just say two years and be done, cause it was really important to me that he spends a year in jail. And he said no, you can't barter, but if he takes the steal, that's what it's gonna be, whatever. I said okay, fine, I'm not happy with it, but whatever. So we go back in there.
Speaker 2:He agrees to it. He has to do this paperwork all over again that he did in January. I give up, get up and give my victim impact statement and then again I sit down and call them into chambers. Then he comes out and he says I cannot proceed with this sentencing because it is not a harsh enough sentence. And so there was a lot of reasons, I think, for that. I think the media pressure of that me reading my victim impact statement, them hearing it, taking quotes from me and then this judge's name was forever gonna be linked to the time it came to be like on sexual predators.
Speaker 2:Yes, and so ultimately what happened? Because COVID was still going on, it took until September and a couple retired judges came out of retirement to try to hear cases and finish them out because it was getting so backlogged, and so he ultimately got two years for each of his crimes, so that's four years total, but he got to serve them together, so he'd only served two years, and then, because of California, you only serve half and then COVID overcrowding. He ended up serving about 11 months, but he is a registered sex funder for life.
Speaker 1:That was his sentence. I mean, and that's like the most menial thing that you could possibly ask for when you're talking, and I'm just like I'm rehashing and re-going through all of this stuff too, and it is a long time ago for me, but it's not far removed emotionally, because I can absolutely put myself right back there in that spot too also, and just go, oh my God, and I know the stress of it. The frustrating system.
Speaker 3:It is.
Speaker 1:Very In all the best ways at times and in all the worst ways at other times. So I mean, it is the system and there certainly is room for improvement, which I think of you and this is where I was going with. Like, I know that Ruthie is working on the Michigan statute of limitations right now, which is really important. I think that needs to go federal, like across every state. I think that there's no reason not to. If there is, especially in cases where it's just so rampant and it is so virulently exposed within the system, like this was here and across all the IFB, it's there's no reason why it shouldn't be for special cases that this is extended due to extenuating circumstances. That is common in the law and Supreme Court.
Speaker 1:Nerd, probably mostly because of all my experience with stuff like this too, One thing I was thinking about and this leads us towards the end of this, because I want you to talk about, like if you're involved with other stuff now and what you're trying to do, which I think is absolutely the best but then, listening to your story, I was like, oh my God, I just wish I could have been sitting there with you and that was in 2020, 2021.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Okay, I just thought I could have been there. I literally had I known I could have been there, with you sitting there and going okay, here's what's happening, I know this, I've been here, I've done this. And like just being there to just be like a little hug, for like all those moments when you're freaking out, not knowing what's going on, not knowing what's going to happen, and then, but having a voice there to say I've been here, I've done this, let me advocate, let me tell you here's what is a good outcome, here is what we can best hope for, based on the statutes, based on the laws when they see these things. This is what's going to happen. Yes, you should be here for this and make sure. Right, those impact statements, right, and usually your coach pretty well on those. For the most part, the usually okay.
Speaker 2:You're not better but I will say, because I was not coached on it, they didn't give me a length like they would have never said holy shit, you can do 10, I'm sure but I think because you know, I just looked up what should be in a victim impact statement and they do give you like a paper that says what should be in it You're really supposed to be saying how the crime affected you, Any cost it's been to you, those kinds of things. But it was super important to me that the judge understand this was not a relationship yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 3:Good for you.
Speaker 1:I was like man and then like the, with the documentary series coming out and I was just like, oh my God, yeah, and I'm like I want to do more Right, and I feel they played a clip I believe in that documentary of you up there Reading this statement.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that was in.
Speaker 2:September. That was the actual sentencing that actually went through where he was taking it to custody Okay.
Speaker 1:Okay, yeah, so, and then you know the there's a blind eye movement which was begun, I'm guessing, after the Sarah Smith article.
Speaker 2:Sarah, I don't know for sure when it was started, but it was started by Ruthie and her sister.
Speaker 1:Yes, right, and so there's that movement, but then I don't know if you want to share anything about what you're working on or your goals and things in which, like people, can help, how you can get involved, how you could be a part of. You know being a voice or being an advocate or being someone who can help in these situations, and if you're also in these situations, you know where you can reach out to and what to do.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Um, just having gone through sexual abuse, emotional, mental, physical, religious abuses I felt like I actually got the opportunity to go to a retreat for women who were sexually abused as minors. It was phenomenal. It's like you get six months of healing and therapy in four days. It was crazy.
Speaker 3:And the thought of the name of it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's called the Haven Retreat. I know that. Okay, so the unique yes.
Speaker 1:Foundation. This is a unique. Oh yes, okay, so, oh my.
Speaker 3:God, this is so amazing to hear.
Speaker 2:Okay so okay, I'm glad.
Speaker 2:So what occurred in that retreat is you walk in and you meet these other women and nobody has to say a word. You all get each other. You're bonded instantly. I'm still friends with these people. There is something about going to a retreat where you know everyone has experienced the same trauma as you. You don't have to talk, you just get each other because you know you're bonded by what you've been through. It's phenomenal. Now you do end up talking and sharing some of your stories because you have these little group meetings and stuff. But I went away from there thinking, wow, that was so amazing. I was so thankful I got to go and the healing it just it propelled my healing forward like six months in four days. It was crazy.
Speaker 2:But I was thinking about afterwards and I'm like I should start a retreat for people that were abused as minors not sexual abuse, specifically, because haven retreats got that dialed in and it does. It does have a unique feature to it when you've been sexually abused, but just for women that were abused as minors physical, spiritual, religious, verbal doesn't matter, because it would be the same. The healing process is somewhat the same thing. You got to go through the stages of grief and you know. So I was thinking about it and I said it to myself I should start a retreat. I'm like, no, I can't do that. And I'm like, well, I've been through this and this, maybe I should do that. And so I really started thinking about it.
Speaker 2:And then, as I got further and further into this court process and I saw justice and I'm suing the church and just all these things were happening, I'm like I think I need to be a therapist. I need to be a therapist and I've been a nurse for 20 years and I was like, okay, how do you be a counselor? And I was looking it up and it takes like four years to start, from start to finish. And I'm like I don't really want to do that. I want to capitalize on my nursing and that's just doing. Research is how I found out I could be a mental health nurse practitioner and the only difference really between a therapist and a mental health nurse practitioner is you're a provider, so you can write prescriptions, but you can also work in a mental health clinic or like a lockdown facility or as a provider. But I want to be a therapist, so that's how I'm going to use it. So I'm currently in school getting my mental health nurse practitioner.
Speaker 2:I also want to start a retreat because my heart really is for teenagers, mainly because I was a teenager when a lot of my abuses happened, but because I didn't have what I needed. And so to me it's important that we get to teenagers, because if you wait until the brain is fully healed, which is the mid 20s, and if you have any kind of learning disability or ADHD, it could be into the 30s. So average is mid 20s. If you can heal, or at least partially heal, before that age, when your brain has fully developed, you won't have a lot of these PTSD triggers because you can unlearn some of the things that happened to trigger you, so that's super important to me.
Speaker 2:I obviously will start with women adults, because I think women are just easier to deal with than minors in the medical setting. So I'm going to start with women, then we'll work our way down. So yeah, I've just been kind of not sure. I kind of feel like I need to finish school before I can open a retreat. No-transcript.