Sisters Declassified Life Survival Guide: Two sisters with four daughters; dishing drama, trauma and survival tips for the everyday.
Two sisters with four daughters. Dishing drama, trauma and survival tips for the everyday.
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Sisters Declassified Life Survival Guide: Two sisters with four daughters; dishing drama, trauma and survival tips for the everyday.
Indoctrination Podcast with Rachel Bernstein, Part 2
Stepping out of the shadows of a cult's influence is a journey fraught with challenges and triumphs; Rachel and Liz are testaments to this arduous path toward freedom. Our latest episode is a riveting exploration of their escape and the myths and stereotypes about women that often underpin such oppressive environments. These sisters, one a mother and movement specialist from Southern California, the other a grandmother and entrepreneur from Oklahoma, lay bare their hearts, detailing the critical moments that propelled them to seek a life beyond the cult's confines. Their stories are not just about breaking free but also the healing that follows, illustrating the potent blend of vulnerability and strength that has shaped their new beginnings.
The complexities of leaving a cult do not end at the decision to walk away; the aftermath is a labyrinth of emotional and legal challenges that many survivors face. In this episode, Rachel and Liz lead us through the dark corridors of fear and intimidation that loom over those who dare to leave. From confronting developmental delays to facing the backlash of a community that once promised safety, they share their personal experiences with a candor that is as enlightening as it is heart-wrenching. Their insights offer a deeper understanding of the psychological barriers that cult survivors must overcome and the resilience required to rebuild a life grounded in autonomy and self-discovery.
This conversation is not just about the shadows but also the light at the end of the tunnel—the reclaiming of body positivity, personal identity, and the simple yet revolutionary act of donning a bikini for the first time. Rachel and Liz's empowering narratives underscore the transformative power of questioning norms and forging an individual path. As they articulate the value of ongoing healing and the freedom to choose one's beliefs, their stories are a powerful reminder of the courage it takes to step into the unknown and the profound personal growth that awaits on the other side. Join us for an episode that celebrates the indomitable human spirit and the boundless possibilities that can emerge from the depths of adversity.
Thanks for listening!
It is so nice to be able to continue my conversation with Rachel and with Liz, the dynamic duo of sisters. I mean, I just love your relationship with each other, just how you've been through something together which is very bonding, but you've also been healing together and speaking out and also really, I think, honoring each other's experiences and honoring the ways you want to approach this in different ways. And there's a really nice example here about how people do it in different ways and it's okay. It's what works for you. It's based on your personality, based on your experience. There isn't one right way to be tackling this. It's sort of the right way for you but it still moves things forward and hopefully, with education, prevention, but also for your healing. So I really like that you can talk about how you've done this and how you've approached it in different ways but just as effectively, and how you've approached it in different ways but just as effectively. And I think it would be great to pick up the conversation talking about kind of the breaking point and breaking free and what helped once you left. And also, you know to talk, liz, you were mentioning just before we started recording about how you didn't report the abuse because you didn't know it was abuse and you thought you had been the temptress basically right that you had made at age 15 or younger, you know, some man approach you in a sexual way.
Speaker 1:That is an archetype that you know women basically have needed to fight against in order to be taken seriously, in order to be seen as having been victimized and abused, and the whole idea of the siren and other ideas of women having this power to draw men in for somehow the man's destruction. It is a really dangerous idea but it repeats itself in mythology and stories and history and still in modern life in a lot of environments, countries and religious organizations. So there's a lot to cover here and it's just so nice to have you back. So for the people who haven't yet heard the first part, please listen to the first part so you get a sense of the story more from the beginning. But also just in case people have not yet been introduced to you, if you don't mind taking a moment and just saying who you are and what you do and why you're here talking about your experience. So, rachel, do you want to start?
Speaker 2:Sure, I am Rachel Holt and I am a mother First and foremost. I teach dance and Pilates, I consider myself a movement specialist and I currently reside in Southern California. My sister and I are writing a podcast, or wrote, wrote a book, and we're also doing a podcast as well, along these same lines that Rachel Bernstein is doing a really good job of talking about in terms of the clinical aspects of healing from our journeys. So happy to be here.
Speaker 1:Nice, nice and movement. I like that movement specialist Also just moving this forward too, you know, okay, and Liz, how about you?
Speaker 3:Okay, I am Liz and I reside and live in Oklahoma currently. I've lived many different places, but this is where I'll probably end up because my kids are now grown. I've got three daughters. I've got two granddaughters, and I think the last time I didn't have the third or the second granddaughter. So now I do, wow, nice, and so, yeah, I just I cut hair, I'm a barber, also have a food truck and an alteration business and I stay very busy with family and everything like that. So along with, like Rachel said, the podcast and the book, and we do a lot, but we love to stay busy and we do it well.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, and congratulations on a new grandchild. Lovely mention, though, from your experiences within the group that help us understand those breaking points, because I know it got touched upon, but I don't know if there were more details you wanted to share with our listeners just about what got you to that point of saying I can't be here anymore. Liz, do you want to start?
Speaker 3:Shortly after my abuse, when I was 16, I started questioning everything. I felt like at the time I had a great relationship with God and the things that I was seeing that was going on in the church cult was not something that God would love, and so I started questioning things and I would get told that you know, you can't question this because this is the man of God. And so I graduated. I was 16 when I graduated high school and I started going to. They would call it a secular college, but it was a music school when I was 17. And about a year later I met my husband and he had come there to. He had just moved there out of college and so his brother was involved in the cult and so I met him and I was very happy to see somebody from the outside that wasn't raised there, that I was absolutely attracted to and wanted to. I mean, you're taught to get married and have kids. That's your goal. So when I saw him I thought this is my way out. Him. I thought this is my way out. Nobody just leaves that environment without what you would call repercussions or something like that. There was many times that my husband and I have talked about now because I did end up marrying him. We married in the church and then shortly thereafter left. But there was many times that we said, oh my gosh, if we would have just had a conversation, we would have left way before, because we didn't communicate. We followed everything they said.
Speaker 3:My husband was, like I said, a little bit more not as much of a follower as I was, because I was raised there and it was ingrained in me and he questioned a lot of things but we didn't talk about it. Once we started talking about it, we were like we have got to get out of this and we knew we could not live in Colorado Springs. We knew that if we left this environment we were going to have to move. So he began looking for a job. Once we had a conversation, there was a good friend of ours that was yelled at from the pulpit in this one service and he actually called them out, said all these terrible things about them, which was common in the cult. If anybody stepped out of line or did something according to not what they thought you should do, he would call them out a lot of times by name and say call them a snake or horrible things, and that was our conversation.
Speaker 3:That was the night we had a conversation. We were like this is not something that God would want. There was no way to talk about people like that. And they were good people, and so we knew we had to. We knew we were going to leave. I didn't tell any of my family this, I was just like we just began the process. He started looking for a job and meanwhile, while we were trying to figure out how to get out, my sister was the actual breaking point where we were like, okay, it doesn't matter. If we can get out of here, we're done. And she can maybe pick up there and tell you her side of the story as to why we left, okay.
Speaker 1:So, before that happens, a couple of things I want to mention. And I understand the idea of someone you love being the breaking point. That can really happen, where you think, okay, I'm a little more hesitant to kind of act on my own behalf, kind of learn not to do that and to also take my emotions seriously and think they have any validity. But I can't handle watching my loved ones suffer, and so that is often a prompt for people, whether something's happening to their children, to their sibling, to their parents, and it helps them really see things clearly on behalf of somebody else. And at the same time, you said something really important. I mean, everything you said was important.
Speaker 1:This one thing, though, that I hear so often is, if my husband and I had just had a conversation, we would have left earlier. Right, you spent a lot of time together, I'm sure, but you don't talk about this, and you also, I think, don't quite know that you can and you don't know how to even say it and that it's okay to be upset, and you might not know that the other person you're with is equally sometimes even more so upset about certain things until you have that conversation, and I think that's why conversations are kept to a minimum and you're supposed to go to people within the church, not to each other. You know, if something's on your mind and also the idea of someone getting up on the pulpit and, from on high, berating and shaming someone in a service, oh my goodness. So that also happens so often that public shaming is one of the most successful forms of behavior modification and people will do anything to not be that person who's then being yelled at. And it's unfortunately really powerful because it's such a horrible thing when it happens and I think people don't know to think not what is wrong with the person who's being berated, but what is wrong with the person who's doing that to them, who is using this forum, this spiritual forum, to just, you know, be mean. So it's an interesting moment where that was part of your breaking point.
Speaker 1:Like this is wrong. This doesn't feel connected to how I see religion, how I see God. God doesn't feel like that. You know God would not be cool with this, right From your perspective. So that is so interesting. There's so many things in what you just said. I know we just got started, but there's already so much to talk about. Okay, so now switching over to you, rachel. So what was Liz referring to about what happened to you? I know you touched on it a bit, but I'd love for you to expand on it while we're talking today.
Speaker 2:Sure, and I do believe we discussed at least the abuse. The initial right was with my niece. When I saw, you know, my abuser physically holding my niece, that was sort of again, it's a like micro macro where you know I was ready to leave, I didn't share or have a conversation with my sister, yet I saw someone I love being harmed, potentially harmed, by the same abuser, and that spurred me to then go talk to my sister and have that cause right. So there's a circular pattern here that's evolving, where when I sat down and finally you know sort of I'll say, you know verbally vomited on my sister with what had happened to me, then that sort of pushed her to actually then really go yes, we're out, we're leaving and she told me everything that her and her husband had been discussing in the past in terms of also considering leaving the cult. And then from there it sort of spiraled. My mom went and spoke with the leader at the time and, of course, denied, denied, denied, and then went to the Colorado Springs Police Department. From then it was moved very quickly into a criminal investigation and then throughout that criminal investigation which again and I don't remember all the details I gave on that, but I was not a willing participant for the most part and I was just not ready. I wasn't given everything that Liz just said about getting called out verbally from the pulpit, losing your entire, let's say, social network of people and knowing that there is no going back from this sort of thing once you step over that line and it goes into legal proceedings, which we were always warned about.
Speaker 2:By the way. I remember when we were real young, waco was a big thing and everyone in our particular brand of cult was in support of their religious rights to practice however they want to, and anti-government. Where you never called, there was plenty of abuse. Growing up, you never called social services. We were trained that the government was the enemy right and that any higher authority was just God and anyone else that came in between God and the leader was then the enemy. So even ingrained in me was that? Well, regardless of whether I think it may feel right to go to the police and to tell them what happened to me, it didn't still feel that. It still felt as though I was going to be punished for it and that I had done something wrong and that involving this secular government officer entity was going to be a problem and that you know, somewhere down the line I don't know, maybe it was a karma thing that you know you're you're just trained to think will happen. So that was a big deal.
Speaker 2:It was challenging. I think I shared details about the district attorney, which is pretty common they're just overwhelmed with court cases and he ended up taking a plea bargain and got out after 10 years. But there were multiple victims, not just myself. There were, I believe, three total that were willing and able to testify in the original court jury trial for the criminal investigation, but on docket or on testimony they had, I would guess and I'm spitballing here, don't quote me on this but I would guess anywhere between 12 to 20 other girls that were involved in it and that went on record testifying, not that they were going to be in a courtroom setting, but were willing to at least offer their personal corroboration of the stories of their abuse. So it wasn't just me and that's also one of the reasons why I did speak out.
Speaker 2:So I knew one, my little, my niece. I knew that there was potential harm there If my sister were to stay Two when I had come back and I went to Hiles Anderson College for one year. As I came back and began the process, like Liz alluded to, of I say quietly quitting, I also noticed that there was abuse. I could see it. If you've been abused and you know the abuser and you see his pattern of grooming and what he's doing, then it was very obvious to me when I got back that it was still ongoing and that there were multiple victims that he was still either grooming, currently abusing, or planning on. And it was just obvious. It was reading a book that you've read a million times before. You've seen it. You recognize it, it's right in your face. So I knew that was going on and I knew would my sister stay there? That that would happen to her daughter as well. So there were multiple steps for me to get to the point to actually cooperate and go in and do the testimony. But it was an arduous journey and it was awful and I don't recommend it to anyone and it's always long.
Speaker 2:They did not know what to do with this case at the time. I don't think on the scale of the criminal investigation nor on sort of I'm going to say separation of church and state was a big deal at the time. The abuse was in 92-93. No prosecution or anything. Criminal investigation until 99. And then that carried on until 2000 when he took a plea deal.
Speaker 2:But at the time I think the simple scale of it I remember that there were so many officers involved there were like the highest level detectives in the department at the time were both supervising the case concurrently, they were both working on it together and I know that they had a ton of investigators below them. But really nobody had ever seen the scope of this many victims and in a religious organization that was controversial in a way that they didn't feel comfortable knowing how to handle it. So they had really, I don't think had a lot of training or ability to say where's the line between a religious organization and what their beliefs are, and then at what point do we say it's abuse? And then what do we have that we can prove it? And then we have to build this case and because I think it was a relatively new way of doing this, of course they're trying to follow protocol, but the protocol doesn't quite fit the situation because of various reasons surrounding sort of that dichotomy between separation of church and state and how much do we protect or preserve religious rights and then how much do we go?
Speaker 2:No, this is really pervasive and even you know, over decades long abuse of a serial pedophile. You could see that happening within the investigation, which, as a survivor, it also gives you a little less confidence in the entire process itself. However, I will say that after it concluded, even though the lead detectives on that case were not happy with the verdict and wanted it to go to trial because they had done such exemplary work on this case and because they had such a strong case, they encouraged me to do a civil suit after and we went on to do that and that was again a long, long process. Again, don't recommend getting that, but we eventually did win that settlement as well. So you know, everything did work in our favor. Everything did work in our favor. But moving from that, I think part of Well, and also I think I did bring this up again, but I'll just re-remember that the victims advocacy group was also really good and that is a high, high praise for them.
Speaker 2:Again, I don't think they knew what to do with this or me at the time. My abuse was at 12 years old, so at the time I was almost 19,. I was 19 when I went to the police. So there had been a very long time period, which is not uncommon in childhood sexual abuse, but it's not also common to see it in such a restrictive, cult-like environment. So there wasn't a ton of trauma-informed, let's say, languaging within the investigation, within the victim's advocacy, even though they had dealt with a lot of, let's say, sexual abuse for minors or in terms of that, but not necessarily with the religious element that was heavily present in my case. So they did again follow protocol and did send me to a pediatric, child-informed trauma therapist that I was required to do and I do think that that saved my life. Um, and I do think that that saved my life, um, I know that actually, I know that that saved my life.
Speaker 2:I did a pretty heavily intensive therapy for the first, I want to say year after the criminal or once I went to the police and the authorities, and that included EMDR, um, cognitive behavioral therapy, um, we tried some, uh, psych drugs and it was not really my cup of tea and doesn't say that's not anyone's, it may work for you if you need them.
Speaker 2:But definitely cognitive behavioral therapy, which was quite intense at the beginning. And then EMDR therapy worked wonders for me in terms of recovering. And then, of course, it took me 20 years to write or start writing with my sister. So let's say it took 20 years, you know, at the minimum, to really start feeling healed enough to go ahead and speak, and we did want it to be a manual. Liz and I looked around and said, well, what's out there? What is out there for not just survivors of abuse, but for child abuse, sexual abuse, survivors within a cult environment like ours? That was our right. So, specifically for people that we knew and grew up with that probably there are many more and they just haven't yet surfaced.
Speaker 1:Right. It is a very important niche and an underserved population and misunderstood population where they have to deal with being asked the questions why didn't you come forward and why didn't you say no and why didn't you? Why didn't you? Why didn't you, why didn't you, why didn't you say no and why didn't you? Why didn't you? Why didn't you, why didn't you, why didn't you?
Speaker 1:And I think more information out there will help prompt a listener, whether it is a friend, a family member or a law enforcement, to not have that be the focus. Why didn't you? And because sometimes people avoid those conversations, they don't want to be asked that question. And also, if the answer is because I thought that I had tempted this person or I thought this is what God wanted, or, in some other groups, this was my karma or this was, you know, meant for me, there are a lot of reasons and they're very valid in terms of the conditioning and they just protect the perpetrator and make people get quiet who are trying to come forward.
Speaker 1:What I think is really important is to be able to do a how-to, a step-by-step, a manual, so that you're not just talking about the issue but you're saying here's some things that you can use that are really practical and that have a sequence, and it can feel really reassuring to know that that's out there.
Speaker 1:What I also really like about your story, rachel, is that you got to say the word we, and so many people say the word I. I came forward, I tried to have the police or an attorney. Believe me, the fact that people lent their voices to and you got to say we is really empowering, can keep you really moving forward and feeling strong enough about this during our last conversation that your mom went for it and said okay, I'm going to see what I can do here, which is great to have an advocate within your family, but especially a parent, it feels, I'm sure, really, really good. And also knowing that you're talking about 20 other people coming forward and those are just the ones who came forward, so it can kind of give you a sense of the numbers, which is really a huge number it's astounding and but it's not uncommon.
Speaker 2:That's the scary part. But one thing you were when you were just speaking about that having a weed also which is more powerful, right, because when we think of numbers or in terms of building momentum and speed and sort of where it reaches a tipping point, we're starting to see some of that, and largely because people like you, you know, also doing the work for a long time. I also wanted to point out the languaging has changed In 20 or 1999, 2000,. It wasn't a trauma-informed therapist, it was abuse counselor, sexual assault, survivor specialist. There were other terms for it. I just think the terminology has changed a lot.
Speaker 2:But I think it's largely due to a lot of we's starting to speak up about it and sort of bringing it to light and there is more police-informed behavior on this now. And it's because of these things, right, they understand that it's maybe not their job to counsel someone in a scenario or how to better support and protect and also take the testimony of someone who's had severe, long-term sexual, emotional, physical abuse happen to them and be kind and careful about the way in which they're treated. Because of right, these things and if you know, if, like I said, I think Liz and I are the OGs on this to some degree, in this specific cult right that came forward and were able to start some of that path. I think we as contributors should all continue to talk and that's that critical mass where it changes something.
Speaker 1:Yeah, very much so, and I think, knowing also that there are people like this attorney, carol Murchison, who specializes in spiritual abuse cases, and a whole law firm around that this is a very new thing. It could have been in place for decades already. It just wasn't. It just wasn't on people's radar and I think they didn't know how to approach it. There's now an organization called the Consent Awareness Network where they're really helping within the legal realm, defining consent and what it means and what it doesn't, and that you don't necessarily go along with things just because you quote, unquote, let it happen and that you didn't say yes to it, is that there are so many cases that I dealt with where I was right there, where someone's trying to be rescued or we're finding someone's child.
Speaker 1:The police show up and they just ask that person are you over 18? And the person, if they are, says yes, or are you close to 18? Yes, well, then they're choosing to stay and there's nothing you can do, and that was so incredibly frustrating to see over and over again. But even if the person was younger, the police still didn't know what to do. They would then think the thing to do is to extract that person from their family. What so? Traumatize them, put them with some other family who doesn't really know how to help them. The perpetrators are still doing what they're doing. Nothing changes, but just you traumatize the child again. So what were the options? So the fact you're yes, this is a new day and there's a lot more to still put in place and again, in some areas and in some whole countries, none of this is available.
Speaker 2:Well and legally 18, right, but mentally, emotionally, developmentally Liz has said that time and time again where she was 16, 15 at the time of her abuse and she was probably more like 12, right, and so there's a developmental age too that comes along with abuse. So if you're under those strict environmental factors that cause you to not have a real developmentally right from child development standards of what to understand or believe or even decide on your own critical thinking skills not common in cult environments to be able to make a choice and inform decision, that's never been evaluated. It's just a legal standard by which they're arbitrarily saying you're ready and able and willing to make decisions for yourself, which is not always the case.
Speaker 1:Right, not always the case, which is not always the case, right, not always the case. And I think, going back to something you said, liz, about how you didn't know how to be in the world outside, so here you would know that what is happening within the group is not good, but then that means you have to enter into a realm that's big and bad and scary and you don't know how to be in it. So a lot of people will it's the expression of better the devil you know than the devil you don't. They'll stay in something where they know how to be in it, even if it's abusive. I'm curious if you can talk more about how much that keeps people, I think, feeling stuck people.
Speaker 3:I think feeling stuck, I think 100% it keeps you stuck because the fear of the unknown outweighs the freedom of getting out Because, honestly, I was there since I was two, so I knew nothing else. Everything I was taught from the time I was two was this is the only way to live. I think whenever we were writing the book this is when I got the most emotional of the entire book was thinking back to that time when we left and how lost I was. I mean, I broke down when we were writing this part of the book because I was like the feelings that it brought up for me and how emotional it was to leave. I didn't feel like I had a home. I didn't feel like I had any friends. I had literally nobody.
Speaker 3:Rachel was going through all of her stuff with the court and all of that and we were as supportive as we could, but I was like married with a baby.
Speaker 3:I didn't know. I mean we went to church after church after church and I would go and I would just sit there and ball and I'm like this isn't it, this isn't it. We were just looking for somewhere to fit in. I felt like I didn't fit in anywhere and I think that the fear of leaving that and even I mean my mom would have never I say that, but she would have never left if it wasn't for Rachel coming forward. I truly believe that I think she still would have been there if she didn't come forward, because my mom felt the same way this was our home, this was our people, this was where we belonged and I would have eventually left. I don't know if my mom would have followed if it wasn't for Rachel coming forward, so it definitely was a very scary thing. I mean, we had experienced other people leaving before us that would leave. There was some people in our church that owned a trash business and dumped buckets of, you know, an entire dump truck of trash in their yard. People from the congregation.
Speaker 2:My God, I'm laughing, but it's awful. I mean, I know it's, it's so absurd and totally juvenile.
Speaker 3:Yeah, they splashed people's tires they splashed people's tires.
Speaker 2:Wow, my car got keyed, remember. Oh yeah, this was right after our mother went to the leader and spoke with him and sort of confronted him on my abuse and his son who had done the abuse. Um, and clearly he knew about meaning. It was proven after that that he actually did in fact know of his son's abusive behaviors and then chose to put me in a situation with his son as a teacher right and a leadership position in the church. So that's part of why we won. Our civil suit is because of some of this. It was already well documented that he had prior knowledge, also a big, huge deal in terms of all the suits that are happening right now, because they were able to show a pattern over multiple years.
Speaker 2:But as soon as my mom had gone to and I was sort of out at the time, I had already kind of stopped going in general and I worked at a local bar and I don't know who told the people there and someone found out, so somebody. And this was direct repercussion. And I was young, I was 19. I wasn't bar, you were allowed to serve, you could not pour. So it was hostess versus bartender. I wasn't bartending, I was pouring, I wasn't pouring, I was serving hostess.
Speaker 2:And I came out one night after work and somebody had keyed my car all the way around it once or twice, I can't even remember and then they had written bitch on my hood like with keyed, like a giant across the hood. So this, and I found out yeah, I found out later, much later, from sources that had been left, that it was the youth pastor's wife that did that to my car. So it was. It wasn't as though we weren't afraid for good reason right, we have very good reasons to both be afraid physically, emotionally, mentally, even at work that we could have had a lot of repercussions for coming out and saying anything, because we had seen it over and over again. So it wasn't a fear that was unfounded at all.
Speaker 1:Oh, my goodness, wow, it was the youth pastor's wife and she was probably going through her own stuff and not having the freedom to do her thing. But taking it out on you, I think, because you somehow were going forward and or bringing shame or something. You know there's sort of blaming the victim. But what was it like for you when you saw that, when you came out and you saw that on your car? Did you feel scared? Did you feel upset?
Speaker 2:Did you feel impatient with what was happening? What was it like for you department is basically almost at the point of giving me a subpoena because they're saying we have to have you come in and give your testimony because someone has indicated that there's been a crime happen. You were under age at the time the crime happened. Therefore, we're going to have to compel you right, and you're an adult now. Therefore, we're going to have to compel you to come in and give testimony. Because if it's an ongoing thing and the abuser is in a situation where they can potentially abuse, then it was almost to the point where they were almost going to consider me an accessory after the fact or whatever, if I didn't speak about it. So it wasn't as harsh as I'm making it sound, but that's how it felt for me at the time and up until this point I thought well, if I don't go on the record, if I don't go to the police, I can just bow out quietly, I won't have any repercussions, I won't get any trauma, they're not going to come after me. I just shut up, go away. That was my plan until I came out from work and saw this and knew that they knew where I worked. If they could find out where I worked, they could probably find out where I had moved to because I had left my mom's house at the time.
Speaker 2:In some ways, liz was a little bit more alone during this time period when she was having such a hard time. This was probably one of the biggest times, historically speaking, that we really weren't talking a lot or that close, because I physically tried to separate myself as much as I could from friends, from family even, and from the church me about a year before I kind of came around and was able to then rebuild a relationship with my family once they had left. So she was really on her own at the time and I felt even more alone because I was trying to, both physically and eventually did geographically, distance myself. But when I came out and saw that I was terrified. I mean, I knew okay, that was them telling me I know where you are, I know what you're doing. What I was doing, working at a bar, was not okay. That was the ultimate sin. And I was, of course, going to a brimstone and hellfire place, but I didn't know if it would stop there and there was a part of knowing that they knew where I worked.
Speaker 2:That also kind of pushed me into going to the police again, because if I hadn't gone, when would it have stopped? And I didn't know if there was any way that I would have any protection. And even after I went in to go to talk to the police I was like, can you please give me some protection? I was physically afraid to walk out of the police station and they had to tell me here are your rights If anything happens. Here's who you call. They gave me the number of the sergeant that I could call him immediately if anything happened. They said if anything, does the sergeant that I could call him immediately if anything happened. They said if anything does happen again, you can do a criminal protective order, you can do a restraint right.
Speaker 2:All of these things as a victim, survivor of that abuse that were available to me that I had no idea, right. So I was basically scared into going finally, partially because of that. That I knew that they knew. I mean they're all criminal acts. All of these are criminal acts that we're talking about. You can't vandalize, right? You can't, right, you know, disturb private property you can't. But of course this was part and parcel for the course for these people, so it wasn't as though we didn't have valid fears in leaving.
Speaker 1:Right, yeah, and going back to the term that I used before, about something being juvenile, that's not to kind of underplay how frightening it is, but there is something about it like just having the word bitch written on your car. It's like someone TPing your house about it. Like just having the word bitch written on your car, it's like someone TPing your house Like really, can we grow up and actually deal with this? And clearly you're feeling threatened by the fact that I am coming forward and maybe we can have a conversation about this, you know, and try to figure out what to do and maybe how to change things so that people don't need to go forward with things, and so, yeah, so, before Liz, we come back to you talking about leaving and kind of entering the world and what that was like, and then talking, I think, more about healing process and moving forward.
Speaker 1:There was a story that you had talked about last time, which was the dumpster diving, that I want to come back to, because it is in those moments that you could really see your life and the conditions that you're living in and if a community really cares about you or not. I mean, there's some moments that really drive the point home, and if we can come back to that story for a moment before we move forward, that would be great. Who would like to pick that up?
Speaker 3:Well, my mom always worked for the church. She was a teacher. Her salary was like, I want to say it was like $800 a month.
Speaker 2:You know, I mean, this is in the 90s Only during the school year, they'd lay them off for the summer.
Speaker 3:Oh yeah, for the summer there was no pay, so she would do whatever she could by. Like she cleaned hotel rooms, she would clean people's houses Just always odds and ends jobs. As soon as we were able to get a job we were like we need money, we're going to help out. But we had discovered hostess. They would throw away all of their things that they didn't sell and so in the night we would go and dig through the trash can and pull out everything we could and it felt like we had won the lottery. Shortly after we did start a paper out, which I started that paper out. I was 15 and I had a permit, wasn't even supposed to drive without an adult, but we would go do the paper out, rachel and I, and we would look behind stores. There was a, was it Dunkin' Donuts? I can't remember.
Speaker 2:We would find the donut guy would drop them off at like, I want to say, 4.30 in the morning, and we knew his car, so he would go in into the 7-Elevens and take out the donuts that were from the day before and then put in new ones. And so we got to know this guy and he would just give us the day old donuts instead of dumping them. And so we ended up figuring out how to literally get food.
Speaker 3:But the hostess we would get bread, I mean all kinds of things. Bread was not something we even had. They were very anti-government, right as Rachel has said. So getting any kind of assistance from the government was like, don't you dare. So my mom didn't. I think she did food stamps a couple times for like a month and then she said they got too nosy so she quit. We never had food stamps, so food was something that we definitely cherished, and when we discovered the Hostess store, that was huge. So we would dumpster dive almost every day. We would go back there and get in and hope nobody saw us, but we literally were so excited to get stuff out of the dumpster.
Speaker 2:Well, and it goes back to that behavior modification thing though, for I think in most cults that is almost always present it's one of the determining factors where we had to sit there and grill our own definition of cult and make sure that we were following the lines of what would be considered, and that is it is financially, you know, basically dependent on the cult or financially invested in the cult in some way.
Speaker 2:So in our case it happened to be we were so financially destitute and my mom was so invested that we had this power struggle where they wouldn't allow her to get assistance because they didn't want them nosing into what she was doing with us, with our education, with our, you know, upbringing, you know abuses that were happening also, and so then it put us in a place of needing right, or needing to be in the cult to then, you know, get, okay, an education, my mom's work, which again was just the bare minimum to keep us alive. So the fact that we were not having nutritional values met on just a basic needs level kept us there, but was also the reason why we were there too, and I think both of us realize that now. But how, even at 14, 15 years old. We did that all through high school too, by the way, but that how that taught us like to think outside the box in terms of you know what, what work you can do, what you can make. Nothing you know blood from a stone, kind of thing.
Speaker 1:Right, yeah, no, I'm sure I mean no-transcript raising kids. So yeah, so to go to Liz, when you were just talking about suddenly entering into this planet that you were not raised on, right, and how do you? Where do you start? I can't imagine what. What was it like for you, even the first kind of things that you needed to do that you hadn't done before?
Speaker 3:yeah. So I think the first thing that we did it's kind of funny, but but we had never been to a movie Very random, you know like movies were terrible. You could not go see a movie because if you were seeing a movie, even if it was a clean movie, you were supporting the pornography industry, like that is literally what they told us. And so I had never been to a theater. I, that was the first thing we did. Um, and then I think we bought a television at some point, but as far as like the Leaving and just I felt so alone. So at the time I had a baby, my husband went to work all day. It would just be at home crying all day long. I was like I don't know what to do. I couldn't call anybody, I didn't know anybody there. My mom still lived there, but she was working, you know. And so I felt like totally alone and abandoned and began to question like if we did the right thing. You know, it was constantly in my mind Did I leave something and am I the one that's wrong? It was very much a mindfuck big time. I constantly was terrified. I was terrified of going to the grocery store and running into somebody that was from there going to the mall and running into somebody. And I mean, when we went to the movies we were terrified of somebody seeing us. I mean it's just like the things that it was constant fear. And I told my husband. I said I'm not going to survive here, we have to move. I mean, and he took a really terrible job in Texas so we could move. I mean it was a terrible job, the pay was terrible, it was terrible, but he knew that it was so important for me to move and he said, I mean, we've talked about it to this day. He never felt fear, but he was there for about a year so he didn't have that instilled in him like I did. But he said he knew I was terrified, you know, and so he was. He was on a mission to get me out, no matter what. And so we did move to Texas, which was close to where his parents lived, and eventually ended up in the town where his parents lived, with a better job and everything.
Speaker 3:And then I began to have friends. But even building friendships it's so odd. It was so odd and it was hard. I was socially awkward, I didn't know how to carry on a conversation. I mean people are talking about a show and I'm like, oh yeah, I've never seen that To this day.
Speaker 3:People will bring up stuff from you know, the 80s, 90s, you know, and I'm their age, we're the same age and they talk about some show and I'm like, sorry, I have a complete like it's a blank slate for any kind of pop culture back then, cause I have no idea, you know, some of this stuff I've went back and seen or watched or read about, you know, but, um, definitely can't relate to a lot of things people talk about. And that's how I felt in conversations with people in the outside world that weren't involved in the cult, when I was trying to make friends and I mean I just felt like everything that I said, I felt like I had to make stuff up to fit in, if that makes any sense, and people would say stuff and you're like, oh yeah, I can totally relate, could not relate at all, but you're just trying to be to understand. And and it eventually came, it was a lot of you know, a lot of stuff also a lot of caring people that I came in contact with who are amazing, and I mean there's people I know now that are friends that literally do not know how I was raised. They have no idea. You know they just I, because I don't talk about it every day anymore.
Speaker 3:I think when we first left, it was all you could talk about and it was a little bit confusing, and then you'd overwhelm people by being like, oh yeah, I was raised in this crazy church and people are like, okay, but they didn't understand, but that's literally all you know, and so the conversations came easier and easier as the time went on. But you make friends with kids. You know your parents of your children or other parents of kids that are your kids' age I'm trying to say that correctly and so you can relate on a parenting level and things like that. And I think I didn't even know who I was until I was well into my 30s because I just focused on being a mom and doing all of that stuff. So I don't even think I could acknowledge any of my abuse, any of the stuff that happened. I just went into like mom mode and not talk about it. It became something that I did not want to talk about.
Speaker 1:Interesting Right, and you know I was happy actually to hear that one of the first things you did was go to a movie. For a lot of reasons, but also because of pop culture, I want to be able to experience something. It also is showing that things aren't inherently evil, that it doesn't make you a bad person. It doesn't mean you're supporting the porn industry if you go in to see something else. And yeah, I mean not everything is going to be just bad. I mean some movies are bad, okay, but it doesn't make you a bad person, a different kind of bad. But you know, then you could relate If someone said they went to a movie. You know what that's like, that you wait online and you get your ticket and you go in and you find your seat and then it gets dark and then the screen, like all the things that you haven't experienced, and the popcorn and the smell of the popcorn and whatever else those are all things that help connect you to the world, to society, and yeah, they might not be important things to talk about, but it helps you feel a part of the world and you get to then enjoy things and also realize it doesn't change you as a human being. Your character is still the same, which can be very relieving and, yeah, being able to just go, oh, uh-huh. You have no idea what people are talking about and you're just like, please don't ask me a follow-up question, okay, no, yes, I've heard of that band. Sure, don't ask me what my favorite song is, please, right, um, but I I think it is.
Speaker 1:It's amazing just to see how much you were sequestered and then need to make, need to make friends, and it's hard because when you're an adult you don't have someone to go to to ask those questions Like how do I have a conversation? And it's hard, right? I mean, those are the questions I get asked as a you know, post-cult therapist Like who am I? What do I like? How do I know what I like? How do I have a conversation about something that's not religious, that's not about furthering the mission? How do I talk about kind of nothing with someone for an extended period of time, comfortably, all of it, use all all the things. It's very interesting, just all the details that make you feel separate and then help you feel more connected, and it's very awkward, but I'm glad you brought that up. I'm wondering, you know, rachel, if that that also happened with you, and then we'll talk more. A little bit about the healing process. Yeah, go ahead.
Speaker 2:And this kind of I think is um is. I've actually done a huge portion of this where I actually did a speech with a writing group of mine and I did it live. It's a group in San Diego but I workshopped it with a guy and it's just hilarious. It's similar to Liz and it also reflects both the stages in which we were at at the time. So Liz had a child and she was married, and so the movie makes a lot more sense than mine does, and mine is about purchasing my first bikini, so I didn't give you all the details about where I worked at the bar at the time, but it was a bikini bar Now. So Liz pushed the buttons gently and she sort of had like a soft I'll call it a soft landing because she had maybe a husband and a child and that made it kind of oh okay, you know, let's tiptoe and be kind of. You know, you know mainstreamy and safe.
Speaker 2:And I just jumped off a cliff. I mean, I went from zero to 180 in you know two seconds, because I thought, well, I don't have anyone, it's just me. So you took away our food, you took away our money, you took away our. Everything that you told us was incorrect, therefore right, and I'm like a pattern recognition. Okay, if then? So if everything you told me was possibly wrong, then I'm going to test every single outlet that you told me was wrong. I'm going to do that to the nth degree and figure out where I find myself. In the middle out.
Speaker 2:And I was already working in a secular job at the time Remember my quietly quitting and that was at a mortgage company for a home builder in Colorado Springs. And then I had recently moved out because of cult and mom, and so I was on my own, completely financially independent, and I needed another, a second job. So I heard some people had told me that you make decent money working in a bar because there's tips and drunk people give you money, and I thought, well, this sounds like my jam. And I went and applied to this job and it smelled awful. I'd never been in a bar before, never tasted alcohol, I didn't even know what I was doing. But I just walked in and there was like a b dude and he took me to this guy who was in the back in this dark dingy space and he's looking me up and down and he's like, okay, you start tonight. Show up at 10 o'clock. The dress code is a bikini. And I was like, great, not only do I not have a bikini, I've also never been in public without sleeved shirts. I also had barely started wearing pants at the time. Shorts had not even crossed my mind. Tank top no, I mean a bikini was kind of the farthest jump off the cliff, of the longest jump you could possibly do at the time for me.
Speaker 2:So, and just like Liz, I thought, oh, you know what? I don't even know. I don't even know where to start. I don't know. I've never bought a bikini, I've never worn a bikini. I don't even know what to look for. I don't know what the sizing is. I have no idea.
Speaker 2:Also, I was terrified to go to the store and I didn't know what store to go to. So I thought, well, walmart's, right there, I'm going to go to Walmart, also, freaking out the entire time. I think I parked a parking lot away because I didn't want anyone to see me going in. I was so afraid and it was so irrational. But I'm going in there and I didn't know what to look for. I had no idea what to pick out. So I picked out I don't know, I think I just grabbed a bunch and I was definitely not going to try them on in the store because that meant I would have more interaction, potentially seeing someone I knew from the cold. That would you know. It would just ruin the whole thing for me. So I just grabbed a bunch, ran through checkout, go home, you know, and finally tried a few on. But it was just harrowing in terms of like oh dear God. And then at some point I was like you know what we're doing it and grab your big boy balls, put them on and put on this bikini and walk through the door as if you own the place and just go for it.
Speaker 2:And I loved that job. I mean, as naive as I was, as stupid as I was, it was a welcoming community. They didn't judge me. They may have, I might not have known, but I found a lot of friends there. It was people my age, they were normal, whatever that meant at the time to me and I created a community. I'm still friends with some of them to this day but they never judged right. Most of them do not know that. That's what happened to me the first night I walked through that job, so they have no idea. So you know, it'd be hilarious to get some of them on, you know, and talk to them about it, because some of them are still again, we're still friends.
Speaker 2:But it was such a deep dive and I was like, well, if not now, then when? And how do I know what's right unless I try all the buttons? So I just pushed the button and it was scary. But it also kind of set the stage for finding balance. It was like, well, that's kind of an extreme environment If you go from really strict, religious, cult, oppressive environment into I'm serving beer at a bikini bar overnight, literally overnight. It was kind of like nope, flip the switch. Okay, this is what I'm doing now, but it took a little while. But there is a balance. We had to come to find the balance. And then where was the in-betweens of all that? But Liz sort of kind of she had a nice gradual, even though it feels like a really steep learning curve and I sort of dived into the deep end and then swam back.
Speaker 1:Right, right, I mean, then that's a perfect metaphor also for wearing a bikini that you dove into the deep end. Yes, awesome, right, it's true, and I think you know. Just as we're finishing up, and there was just one last question I wanted to be able to ask both of you. When you go into an environment like that, you also, yeah, you're dealing with potential shame and feeling exposed, but also learning that your body and exposure of your body is not inherently evil.
Speaker 2:Yes, nobody had seen me, I hadn't seen myself out in public, but in terms of body positivity, that was the best personal thing I could have done for myself, because we were hypersexualized while being fully clothed. I was abused by this organization sexually, physically, emotionally, every way. So what better thing could I have done to then become positive with the fact that I'm putting myself out there in this scampiest, whatever minimal clothing to show my body, as maybe it's objectified in a wrong way? But also, how was it treated in that situation? So the corporality of having a body in a situation where you're not being abused but you're also not following the rules in which the situation you were prior abused in, while wearing a lot of clothing.
Speaker 1:It's so interesting, right. And then when you're in a bikini also, you still can't have people touch you without your consent. I mean, you have way more rights in that environment. That's so interesting, absolutely.
Speaker 2:And I will throw in this little nugget the entire US Olympic judo team, or the bouncers at the bar, is Colorado Springs, so the Olympic Training Center was right down the street and all the judo team were the bouncers at the bar is Colorado Springs, so the Olympic training center was right down the street and all the judo team were the bouncers. So the second anything happened. I had the squat team like right at my toe and again, those were some of my good friends, like still to this day they are, and but it was like look at the difference in the way that my female body was treated in different environments that are completely polar opposites, with very different ideologies so powerful.
Speaker 1:So if just again, as we're finishing up because I know we have to call it and we could talk for so much longer and it's so hard to end this conversation call it and we could talk for so much longer and it's so hard to end this conversation. So, even though you may feel like you've already touched on so many incredible things and maybe you've covered them all, but is there something else that you think would be good for people to know who are going through that, who are leaving, who are trying to find kind of what is good about themselves, what's okay, what's safe and how to be in the world? Is there something else that you realized or that you went through that has been something that has stayed with you, that's helped you feel good about you and safer in the world than you were there. And so I'm wondering, liz, if there's, like this pearl, something that you hang on to that helps you.
Speaker 3:I don't think there's a specific thing. To be honest, I do know that it's hard, it's extremely hard, but it's so worth it. I know from like my kids are the age some of them are the ages that now that I was, when I left the cult and I raised them very differently than I was raised in the cult and I never pushed any kind of religion or anything like that on them, I let them decide all that stuff for themselves. If they wanted to go to church, great. If you don't, great. If you want to believe this, I don't care, you need to figure it out for yourself.
Speaker 3:I mean, as I left, I think that was one thing that I never got to figure out what I believed until I was completely out. I had to reassess do I even believe in God? Do I even believe in church, organized religion, Do I, you know? And I had to figure all that out. But it is so worth it because I'm so strong in my beliefs. Now I know exactly what I believe. But figuring it out at an older age is a lot different than when you're young, and so I think that anybody that wants to get out of a situation like that it's so worth it Just for your peace of mind and you're just not being controlled by somebody else and being able to think on your own and not have someone else dictate how you think. Because I feel like that was my entire growing up I never got to decide anything for myself or think for myself. It was always told what I had to do and when I had to do it, and I think knowing who you are is so amazing.
Speaker 1:Right and giving your children, and then grandchildren, the gift of that as well. It's very powerful. Thank you for that. And Rachel, how about you?
Speaker 2:I also want to just say that my process and healing is still ongoing. I still have days where I'm questioning have I healed fully? And it's still a process. So what I think I've taken away from that is ask a lot of questions, Trust the process. If you can't ask a lot of questions, get the fuck out, Because if you ask a lot of questions then you can trust the process and sometimes that's patience. But if you can't ask questions, then you're in the wrong process.
Speaker 1:I love that Right and being able to question also being symbolic of freedom, and also seeing if someone is there to answer your questions and also helps you along the way. I think, learn to answer them on your own. You know that you can work together. That's something I know that I try to do for my clients or for my kids Also, I'm happy to answer this question and then let's see if we can get to the point where you feel like you can check in internally and if that's not working, then yes, then ask me. We can work together on this. But I love that being able to ask questions Very powerful, thank you. Thank you to both of you, and I can't wait to be able to see what you put together and be able to have it be a resource for so many people, a very practical resource, and so let people know about where they can find you, if you're out there on social media and what you're working on, and then we'll have to run.
Speaker 3:We do post a clip from our podcast each time, and so we do have a Facebook and an Instagram which is Sisters Declassified. It's just sisters underscore declassified. Um, it's just sisters underscore declassified for Instagram and sisters declassified for Facebook. And then you can always reach out to us through email. It is sisters declassified at gmailcom. So those are the ways to do us. You can find us on Spotify, um, yeah, anywhere you get your podcasts. We do a bi-weekly podcast which is Sisters Declassified Life Survival Guide Long name, but.
Speaker 1:I love it. It's so good, so good, such a pleasure. Anytime you want to come back on, anytime something's happening and you want to announce it, please, please, please, use this as your forum.